[smerriman]

 Swammerdam, on 2025-October-10, 02:25, said:

THREE level. In the example, the game-forcing bid was THREE ♥. There is an excellent chance opener has at least three spades. If Responder has a lousy hand with Clubs, he can bid 3NT. The proper denomination will probably become apparent very quickly. Contrast this with 2♣ Pass 2♦ Pass 3♦ where you're almost as high as 3♥ and very little distributional information has been exchanged.

I didn't say the game forcing bid was at the 4 level. I said you will be at the 4 level still without knowing what the best fit is, or the combined strength. Suppose responder isn't weak with clubs. Does 4♦ show a fit or is that a preference because they have nothing else to bid? Strong or weak? Is 4♥ suggesting playing in a 7 card fit? Strong or weak? Ìf 3nt is weak with clubs, what do you do with some values and clubs?

I don't know why you'd think there's an excellent chance opener has at least three spades, given they've denied 4 by not raising, and have shown lots of red cards..

 Swammerdam, on 2025-October-10, 02:25, said:

Meanwhile, I still welcome answers to my actual questions, based on the actual hands presented in my preceding post:

I didn't see a question. Are you asking what i would bid as responder after the reverse? 2♠ in both cases, F1.

[Swammerdam]

smerriman, on 2025-October-10, 02:56, said:

I didn't say the game forcing bid was at the 4 level. I said you will be at the 4 level still without knowing what the best fit is, or the combined strength. Suppose responder isn't weak with clubs. Does 4♦ show a fit or is that a preference because they have nothing else to bid? Strong or weak? Is 4♥ suggesting playing in a 7 card fit? Strong or weak? Ìf 3nt is weak with clubs, what do you do with some values and clubs?

I don't know why you'd think there's an excellent chance opener has at least three spades, given they've denied 4 by not raising, and have shown lots of red cards..

Most of your questions answer themselves when you recall that Opener didn't just Reverse; he Jump-Reversed. He has a VERY good hand and a distribution that gives him confidence. With shortness in spades he might have been content to simply reverse. If he doesn't have spades he has EXCELLENT red suit(s).

It is possible to end up in 4♥ with only 7, but Opener will then have a very good suit. Do you need me to construct a hand where that contract is best?

smerriman, on 2025-October-10, 02:56, said:

I didn't see a question. Are you asking what i would bid as responder after the reverse? 2♠ in both cases, F1.

No. I presented you with hands that are NOT good enough for a FORCING Reverse. I am suggesting you will sometimes end up TOO HIGH if you make a Reverse which partner is not allowed to Pass, and sometimes end up TOO LOW if you fail to Reverse. I supplied example hands for both those problems. The question is: How do you bid the hands, if you can, to avoid those problems?

[mike777]

 Swammerdam, on 2025-October-09, 20:12, said:

I read here that reverses are forcing. (I assume "forcing" means partner must bid 100% of the time, not 99%.) I want to reconcile that with my own (ancient!) ideas about bidding.
I will consider specifically the auction
     1♦ Pass 1♠ Pass
     2♥ Pass ??

There are a wide range of hands where an old-fashioned Opener may bid this way, and Responder may Pass the reverse.
I want to understand the preferred auctions.

(Experts may find fault with my example hands. Please help me make my point by making minor adjustments to the examples!)

Opener might have
    ♠Qx ♥AKJx ♦AK9xxx ♣x
or
    ♠Q ♥KJ9xx ♦AKxxxxx ♣-
If Responder has
    ♠J9xxx ♥xxxx ♦Qx ♣QJ
4♥ is good, but he'd pass 3♦. If Responder has
    ♠J9xxxx ♥x ♦Qx ♣KJx
3NT is good, but again he'd pass 3♦.
Only a reverse might encourage further bidding with such hands.

If Opener can make a non-forcing reverse, but Responder has an unsuitable hand like
    ♠K9xxx ♥xx ♦- ♣QJxxxx
you may be headed for a minus score no matter what. Get out ASAP.

Change the example hands a bit, if you wish but I think you'll have no trouble finding combinations where a forcing Reverse gets you too high but, changing Responder's hand a bit, failure to Reverse misses a game.

How do you Force? With a Jump Reverse! THREE ♥ after 1♦ ; 1♠
Does that get you too high? LOTS of game-forcing auctions get high quickly.

Unfortunately jump reverses are mini splinters. A very important tool in your kit. Strongly invitational

Not exactly sure what your goal is here.
Reverses are not game forcing
They are F1.

[smerriman]

 Swammerdam, on 2025-October-11, 09:50, said:

Most of your questions answer themselves when you recall that Opener didn't just Reverse; he Jump-Reversed. He has a VERY good hand and a distribution that gives him confidence. With shortness in spades he might have been content to simply reverse. If he doesn't have spades he has EXCELLENT red suit(s).

It is possible to end up in 4♥ with only 7, but Opener will then have a very good suit. Do you need me to construct a hand where that contract is best?

Yes, opener has a strong hand in your proposed system, and yes, 4♥ on a 4-3 fit may be best. What I'm saying is that responder has no room to tell opener whether they have a real fit or whether they have a good hand, so opener won't know whether to look for slam or stop in game. I don't see how this question answers itself. Would responder have to use Blackwood every time they have 4 hearts, since opener will pass a 4♥ bid in case it's a 4-3 fit?

 Swammerdam, on 2025-October-11, 09:50, said:

The question is: How do you bid the hands, if you can, to avoid those problems?

Both are reverses in my book. Yes, you will sometimes get too high if partner has the worst possible hand, but the benefits outweigh the negatives. With Qx AKJx AK9xxx x opposite K9xxx xx - QJxxxx I'd go 1♦ - 1♠ - 2♥ - 2♠ - 3♦ and then responder has a fun choice between passing and signing off in 3♥..

[mike777]

Both are reverses in my book. Yes, you will sometimes get too high if partner has the worst possible hand, but the benefits outweigh the negatives. With Qx AKJx AK9xxx x opposite K9xxx xx - QJxxxx I'd go 1♦ - 1♠ - 2♥ - 2♠ - 3♦ and then responder has a fun choice between passing and signing off in 3♥..
[/quote]

For me 2 spades =5+ spades, non gf.
Opener with that exact hand might pass and play in 2 spades.

[Swammerdam]

Did I read somewhere that some treat Reverses as Game Force? We can dispense with that, right?

smerriman, on 2025-October-11, 12:41, said:

Both are reverses in my book. Yes, you will sometimes get too high if partner has the worst possible hand, but the benefits outweigh the negatives. With Qx AKJx AK9xxx x opposite K9xxx xx - QJxxxx I'd go 1♦ - 1♠ - 2♥ - 2♠ - 3♦ and then responder has a fun choice between passing and signing off in 3♥..

Am I correct that BOTH 3♦ and 3♥ will almost certainly fail in your example? I can escape with a successful part-score.

I "get my cake and eat it too"! Partner will strain to bid over the Reverse but Pass when game seems very unlikely. (With K9xxx xx - QJxxxx isn't 4♠ going to be quite tough even if opener has three spades?

Make the hand very slightly better, say KT AKJx AKJ9xx x, and partner will have little trouble bidding over the forcing Jump to 3♥ -- he can rebid a good spade suit, try NT with good clubs, or pick a red suit.

- - - - - - - - -

I respond to an opening bid with most 5-point hands (and even some 4-point hands). Are you more conservative than that? Perhaps that would help explain the different treatment of Reverses.