[jillybean]

Hi,

I’ve been told you ‘cant’ preempt in 4th seat, I’ve also been told by better authorities that 4th seat preempts should be sound, you should expect to make them.

I don’t have much experience of what works or not, we got a top board on this hand. The only pair to find 3nt but was it the right bidding or good luck? I think I would have opened 2x in another suit.

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 Pass  Pass  Pass  3♣
 Pass  3NT   Pass  Pass
 Pass  

[hrothgar]

I think that 3♣ is quite descriptive

[DJNeill]

Nice bid, well done. I don't open preempts in 4th seat with non-regular partners because of what I think is a 10% success rate. Even when they know it's intermediate it differs how strong they think it is.

[whereagles]

> I’ve been told you ‘cant’ preempt in 4th seat,

What they meant is that you shouldn't preempt on 4th seat with weak hands. Weak hands (8 or less hcp) should go for the pass out because the odds are opps have more hcp than we. E.g. the split is something like 11-10-11-8.

> I’ve also been told by better authorities that 4th seat
> preempts should be sound, you should expect to make
> them.

That is incomplete. The full statement should read "you should expect to make them with 2 tricks from pard". The idea of a 4th seat pree is to take your shot at a plus score while inhibiting opps from entering the fray. Naturally, when you judge that a good 10 hcp from pard might be enough to make game, you shouldn't open the pree, but rather 1 of a suit.


> I don’t have much experience of what works or not, we got
> a top board on this hand. The only pair to find 3nt but was
> it the right bidding or good luck?

3♣ was a bit of a stretch, but certainly not an error. Pard's 3NT was also completely correct: he had 2 quick tricks and stops in all suits. All he needed was running clubs (direct or via finesse) and a side trick. Not too much to ask if the 4th seat pree is sound. I describe the bidding as "bold, but correct".

[neilkaz]

Nice comment by whereagles here ! If you decide to open, 3♣ is better than 1♣ since it is much harder for the opps who almost certainly have a major suit fit to get into the auction.

I have a slight preference to pass as I just don't think 3♣ is a favorite to score plus vs a passout, but I cannot criticize what I think is a close decision.

PD's 3NT raise is well thought out and I completely agree.

[pclayton]

3♣ is a gamble with a 6 card suit, albeit good. I might try it if I needed a swing or a top. I'd also expect at least another Q.

I confess I'd pass this one out.

[jillybean]

Ive seen players open 2x with 7cards, 10points and 3x with 5cards 7points, completely opposite to what I was taught way back when I joined BBO. Since then I have learned vulnerability and position are a major consideration but I don’t understand why you would flip the openings like this. I have a probably bad habit of downgrading poor 3x preempts to 2x when suit and vulnerability are against us.

When would you change a 3x preempt to a 2x or visa versa, or have I just been kibitzing poor players?

[pclayton]

jillybean2, on Nov 22 2006, 12:21 PM, said:

Ive seen players open 2x with 7cards, 10points and 3x with 5cards 7points, completely opposite to what I was taught way back when I joined BBO. Since then I have learned vulnerability and position are a major consideration but I don’t understand why you would flip the openings like this. I have a probably bad habit of downgrading poor 3x preempts to 2x when suit and vulnerability are against us.

When would you change a 3x preempt to a 2x or visa versa, or have I just been kibitzing poor players?

When you are in 4th position, you have the option of throwing the deal in. The absolute worst thing that can happen is you get a minus score, so you should have some expectation that you have a (slight) balance of strength and a source of tricks.

My 4th chair weak 2's show 11-13. My 3 bids show the same and a 7 card suit.

Even on the actual hand, if the club hook loses, its a top or bottom proposition. The other issue is that the opponents happen to have a 9 card heart fit and the are cold for 9 tricks (8 if we find the spade ruff), although the 4-4 in spades looks pretty solid for 9 tricks.

At other tables, its very likely someone opened with these majors and they found their fit. Your side competed in clubs, but they probably didn't buy the deal.

In others words, I'll bet you a pass-out is already getting you a 60-70% board.

If this were IMPs, the prospect of a 3N game on these cards is more attractive, however, when it goes down, it goes down a LOT; probably 3.

[gwnn]

Nice bidding. Nice to see nice bids getting nice rewards!

[kenberg]

I probably wouldn't open it. If you give your partner the Ax of diamonds and the Qxxx in hearts instead of vice versa he would bid the same and it may not go so well. Leave his cards as they are and move the king of clubs across the table and it won't go so well. I do think it is a reasonable choice to open it 3C, I just think I wouldn't do it. Certainly if you plan to open it, 3C is how. Anything else risks letting them find their major if they have one (as they do). As far as what should be expected from a fourth seat opening at the three level, I think one way to describe it is "usually hoping to play it there, but a hand that the North player can and should bid 3NT on when he has a hand like the one shown". I would hold out for another club.

[whereagles]

> Ive seen players open 2x with 7cards, 10points and 3x with 5cards 7points,
> completely opposite to what I was taught way back when I joined BBO. Since
> then I have learned vulnerability and position are a major consideration but I
> don’t understand why you would flip the openings like this.

Preempting is a lot more complicated than following rules. Seat/vulnerability/jugdement issues play a big role. When you learn preempts, you're tought only the basic requirements. Experienced players go a bit further because they learned (sometimes from painful experience) when to twist the rules to open 2x on 7 cards, or 3x on 5 cards.

I'd like to give you a reference on advanced preempting, but, unfortunately, good books on advanced preempting are very rare. I only know one: chapter 3 of Robson/Segal. I think a .pdf of it is avaliable somewhere in the internet. You can try and google it.


> I have a probably bad habit of downgrading poor 3x preempts to 2x when suit
> and vulnerability are against us.

That's not a bad habit. That's a good habit If the hand is too offensive to pass and the suit is bad, 2x is a good compromise solution.


> When would you change a 3x preempt to a 2x or visa versa

Definitely downgrade when the suit is bad and vuln is against you, e.g.

KJxxxxx
x
QJx
xx

seems like a 2♠ to me. As for upgrade, do it at NV and with a good suit and an otherwise worthless hand on defense, e.g.

x
QJT9xx
xx
xxxx

seems like a good 3♥ to me at NV, 1st or 3rd seat. Not in 2nd seat because chances are pard has as much hcp as LHO. If he takes you too seriously, he might be disappointed. Still, a 2♥ sure is ok, even despite the low hcp count.