[Walddk]

This is a very unusual bidding sequence which few partnerships have discussed (I think).

1Club pass 1Spade pass
2Clubs pass pass .. 3♣?

What has he got?

Roland

[FrancesHinden]

I'm not totally convinced the auction exists. The only thing we really know for certain is that partner has very short clubs, as he would pass with very long clubs.

However, given my agreements after 1C P 1S which are
- 1NT natural, strong
- 2S natural

I think partner is something like 5440 or possibly 5350 with a good hand. He didn't double 1S because he knew we'd never get to spades; he doesn't double 2C because he doesn't want to defend.

[if we played 2S on the previous round as conventional, then I think partner has a very good hand with long spades]

[david_c]

Looks like a freak two-suiter to me. And the reason we didn't bid on the previous round is one of the suits is spades. So my guess is spades and a red suit, at least 6-5, probably 6-6.

[Walddk]

FrancesHinden, on Sep 11 2006, 01:42 PM, said:

- 2S natural

Yes, the 3♣ bid now is based upon the agreement that 2♠ first time around would have been natural, non-forcing.

Roland

[FrancesHinden]

I agree with david_c that he can't have any one-suiter. A very strong spade 1-suiter that didn't want to bid a non-forcing 2S last round could jump to 3S this round.

(I've never had the auction 1C P 1S 3S before either)

[kenrexford]

Don't ask me. I have never been able to figure out what it's gots in its pocketses.

[Free]

No idea

[MickyB]

There seem to be two sensible hands to show - 5(35)0 and the extreme two suiter. 2NT is also available and pushes us to the same level, so I think 3C should show the 2-suiter and 2NT the semi 3-suiter - allowing a 3C cue as "what's your red suit?" and 3 of either red suit as "to play".

[inquiry]

Well, it is not clubs. I ran this auction (well, I used 1C-P-1any-Pass-2C-Pass-Pass-3C) on a database of 23 million auctions. I turned up this auction as occuring 8 times. This is what the hands were...It was a two suiter takeout 5 times, and a three suited take out 3 times. Not much to go on here. If I had to guess, I would say two suiter with spades (or whatever suit RHO bid) and an unbid suit.

Produced by BRidgeBRowser on 11-Sep-06
========================================
IMP-21      East        Dlr: West  
Board 756   S K6        Vul: Both
            H J9876     
North       D AJ4       South       
S AT2       C 932       S QJ953     
H K32                   H QT        
D 9763      West        D KQT85     
C K75       S 874       C T         
            H A54       
            D 2         
            C AQJ864    

North      East       South      West       
                                 1C         
Pass       1H         Pass       2C         
Pass       Pass       3C         Pass       
3D         Pass       Pass       Pass       
Opening lead: C3    Result: Down 1
Score: 100          Points: 0.45  
 1. E C3/T/A/5
 2. W HA/2/6/T
 3. W H5/3/7/Q
 4. S DK/2/3/A
 5. E H9/D5/H4/HK
 6. S DQ/C4/D6/D4
 7. S SQ/4/2/K
 8. E DJ

------------------------------------------
IMP-21      East        Dlr: North 
Board 469   S JT3       Vul: N-S
            H T7        
North       D AT87      South       
S 8         C AJT2      S Q9742     
H KQJ86                 H 53        
D 6         West        D KQ2       
C KQ6543    S AK65      C 987       
            H A942      
            D J9543     
            C           

North      East       South      West       
1C         Pass       1S         Pass       
2C         Pass       Pass       3C         
Dbl        3D         Pass       Pass       
Pass       
Opening lead: C9    Result: Made 3
Score: 110          Points: -2.90 
 1. S C9/H2/CQ/CA
 2. E H10/5/A/8
 3. W H4/J/7/3
 4. N HK/D7/DQ/H9
 5. S S4/A/8/3
 6. W D3/6/T/K
 7. S S2/K/C3/ST
 8. W D4/H6/DA/D2

------------------------------------------
MP-21       East        Dlr: West  
Board 148   S AJ6       Vul: Both
            H 76543     
North       D J7        South       
S 9532      C J98       S KQ87      
H K9                    H AJT2      
D 9653      West        D A842      
C T73       S T4        C Q         
            H Q8        
            D KQT       
            C AK6542    

North      East       South      West       
                                 1C         
Pass       1H         Pass       2C         
Pass       Pass       3C         Pass       
3S         Pass       Pass       Pass       
Opening lead: C8    Result: Down 1
Score: 100          Points: 49.40 
 1. E C8/Q/K/3
 2. W DQ/3/7/A
 3. S H2/Q/K/3
 4. N S2/6/K/4
 5. S SQ/T/3/A
 6. E CJ/S7/C2/C7
 7. S HA/8/9/4
 8. S HJ/C4/D5/H5
 9. S H10/C5/CT/H6
10. S D2/K/6/J
11. W D10/9/H7/D4
12. W CA/S5/C9/D8
13. N S9/J/8/C6

------------------------------------------
IMP-26      East        Dlr: South 
Board 1035  S KQT74     Vul: None
            H AQJT3     
North       D J32       South       
S 32        C           S A5        
H 9762                  H 84        
D K84       West        D AT76      
C QJ53      S J986      C A9842     
            H K5        
            D Q95       
            C KT76      

North      East       South      West       
                      1C         Pass       
1H         Pass       2C         Pass       
Pass       3C         Dbl        3NT        
Pass       Pass       Pass       
Opening lead: CQ    Result: Made 4
Score: 430          Points: 0.76  
 1. N CQ/D2/C2/CK
 2. W S6/2/Q/A
 3. S C4/6/J/D3
 4. N C5/H3/CA/C7
 5. S C9/T/3/DJ

------------------------------------------
MP-40       East        Dlr: East  
Board 530   S KT73      Vul: N-S
            H A96       
North       D 832       South       
S 986       C KT3       S AQ42      
H T3                    H K85       
D A96       West        D JT        
C AQ852     S J5        C J964      
            H QJ742     
            D KQ754     
            C 7         

North      East       South      West       
           Pass       Pass       Pass       
1C         Pass       1S         Pass       
2C         Pass       Pass       3C         
Dbl        3NT        Pass       Pass       
Dbl        Pass       Pass       4D         
Pass       Pass       Dbl        Pass       
Pass       Pass       
Opening lead: S6    Result: Down 3
Score: -500         Points: 0.00  
 1. N S6/3/Q/5
 2. S C4/7/A/3
 3. N S8/7/A/J
 4. S CJ/H2/C5/CK
 5. E D2/T/Q/A
 6. N CQ/T/6/D4
 7. W DK/6/3/J
 8. W HQ/3/6/K
 9. S H5/4/T/A
10. E SK/2/H7/S9
11. E S10/4/HJ/D9
12. N C8

------------------------------------------
IMP-36      East        Dlr: South 
Board 767   S A542      Vul: N-S
            H A982      
North       D AQ92      South       
S J63       C 4         S Q9        
H 6                     H KQJ       
D JT763     West        D 85        
C AJ83      S KT87      C KQT652    
            H T7543     
            D K4        
            C 97        

North      East       South      West       
                      1C         Pass       
1D         Pass       2C         Pass       
Pass       3C*        Dbl        3H         
4C         4H         Pass       Pass       
Pass       
Opening lead: CA    Result: Made 4
Score: 420          Points: 5.99  
 1. N CA/4/2/7
 2. N D3/9/5/4
 3. E HA/J/3/6
 4. E H2/Q/4/C3
 5. S HK/5/C8/H8
 6. S CK/9/J/H9
 7. E D2/8/K/6
 8. W S7/3/A/9
 9. E DA/C5

------------------------------------------
IMP-39      East        Dlr: North 
Board 913   S 62        Vul: None
            H J9        
North       D Q7643     South       
S QT4       C Q532      S 98        
H 53                    H AQ76      
D A5        West        D KT982     
C AKJT74    S AKJ753    C 98        
            H KT842     
            D J         
            C 6         

North      East       South      West       
1C         Pass       1D         Pass       
2C         Pass       Pass       3C*        
Dbl        Pass       Pass       4S         
Pass       Pass       Pass       
Opening lead: CA    Result: Down 2
Score: -100         Points: 0.15  
 1. N CA/2/9/6
 2. N DA/3/8/J
 3. N D5/7/9/S3
 4. W SA/4/2/8
 5. W SK/T/6/9
 6. W H2/3/J/Q
 7. S C8/S5/C7/C3
 8. W HK/5/9/A
 9. S DK/S7/C4/D4
10. W H10/SQ/C5/H6
11. N CK

------------------------------------------
MP-4        East        Dlr: West  
Board 536   S A         Vul: None
            H Q7543     
North       D 98764     South       
S JT642     C T6        S K875      
H AT62                  H           
D A2        West        D K5        
C 54        S Q93       C AQ98732   
            H KJ98      
            D QJT3      
            C KJ        

North      East       South      West       
                                 Pass       
Pass       Pass       1C         Pass       
1S         Pass       2C         Pass       
Pass       3C         3S         Pass       
4S         Pass       Pass       Pass       
Opening lead: SA    Result: Made 4
Score: -420         Points: 26.89 
 1. E SA/5/3/2
 2. E C6/A/J/4
 3. S S7/Q/4/D4
 4. W CK/5/T/2
 5. W DQ/A/6/5
 6. N HA/3/C3/H8
 7. N H2/4/S8/H9
 8. S CQ/D3/H6/D7
 9. S DK/T/2/8
10. S C7/S9/ST/D9
11. N H10/7/SK/HJ
12. S C8/DJ/S6/H5
13. N SJ/HQ/C9/HK

------------------------------------------

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

one open question: What would 2C have
meant over 1S?
Would it have been conventional?
In which case, as weird as it may seem, 3C
has to be natural.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[whereagles]

Hum.. 8 times in 23 million boards? At a 0,000035% chance per board of it happening to me, I'll take my chances that it won't happen in my lifetime and simply disregard this auction

[Walddk]

whereagles, on Sep 11 2006, 03:53 PM, said:

I'll take my chances that it won't happen in my lifetime and simply disregard this auction

As you wish, but a hand came up over the weekend (Irish Camrose Trials) where David Greenwood thought he had a perfect hand for the very rare 3♣ bid on an auction like this.

He asked me how I would interpret 3♣, and I told him. Some of you have been very close already. I'll post his hand a little later.

Roland

[inquiry]

P_Marlowe, on Sep 11 2006, 08:41 AM, said:

Hi,

one open question: What would 2C have
meant over 1S?
Would it have been conventional?
In which case, as weird as it may seem, 3C
has to be natural.

With kind regards
Marlowe

3C making = +110 (9 tricks for you).

Their 2C winning 4 tricks is down 4, at least +200 for you. So for a partscore issue, bidding 3C with clubs doesn't seem right. I guess if you hoped to make 3NT when this woke partner up, it might be worth it, but maybe you should have bid 3C over 1C then.

[P_Marlowe]

inquiry, on Sep 11 2006, 09:21 AM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Sep 11 2006, 08:41 AM, said:

Hi,

one open question: What would 2C have
meant over 1S?
Would it have been conventional?
In which case, as weird as it may seem, 3C
has to be natural.

With kind regards
Marlowe

3C making = +110 (9 tricks for you).

Their 2C winning 4 tricks is down 4, at least +200 for you. So for a partscore issue, bidding 3C with clubs doesn't seem right. I guess if you hoped to make 3NT when this woke partner up, it might be worth it, but maybe you should have bid 3C over 1C then.

Hi,

I am not claiming 3C natural makes a lot of Bridge sense,
but than the given auction does not make a lot of sense.
A strong 2/3-suiter assuming, I hold the diamonds and
hearts could have made a direct dbl after 1S or bid 2NT.

And a 2-suiter with spades???
If they have psyched 1 spade, they got me, and I have to
accept it, I am never conving partner that I hold spades+?

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Walddk]

P_Marlowe, on Sep 11 2006, 04:29 PM, said:

And a 2-suiter with spades???
If they have psyched 1 spade, they got me, and I have to
accept it, I am never conving partner that I hold spades+?

I don't think responder has psyched, but I do think that 3♣ includes spades now.

Roland

[Free]

I've been thinking about this for a while now...

Weither it's a 2-suiter or 3-suiter, it should include ♠ (so far I got immediatly). But that's the meaning of a double, right? So it CAN'T be 2/3-suiter, it can't be ♣, it can't be ♠, it can hardly be ♥ or ♦, so what's left? Balanced hands? No way. I guess he just wants to find a stopper ♣ with a looooooong solid ♦ suit or so, but why didn't he bid it the previous round? I still haven't figured it out...

[mikeh]

Process of elimination:

It can't be a pure ♠ one suiter.... could have bid some number of ♠ now.

Could be a very strong ♠ one suiter with red stops.... so 3♣ asks for a ♣ stopper: AKQ10xxx Ax KJx x... not willing to commit to a ten trick game but sure interested in a 9 trick contract

Could be a 5=4=4=0 very good hand....

Could be a spade-red suit two suiter.... but with 5=5, for example, and a hand now worth committing to the 3-level, most would have bid the red suit earlier.

The main problem with the 5=4=4=0 hand is that the 3♣ bidder has no safety... no assurance, at all, of a fit... with RHO perhaps holding as much as a 9 count with 5431 shape and partner is stuck with 6♣ and out.

With 5440 and enough that the prospect of flailing for a fit at the 3-level is not so terrifying as to force a pass, I think that he might have doubled 1♠.... but I am not comfortable with this.

So I reluctantly opt for the first meaning: a very good hand with near solid or solid ♠ and some expectation of 9 tricks in 3N if partner can stop ♣.

If I read the comments from Roland correctly, the player who held the 3♣ hand merely thought about bidding it and did not actually do it: which I think is the perfect way to deal with these thoughts... no partner deserves to have to figure out 3♣ at the table

[FrancesHinden]

mikeh, on Sep 11 2006, 04:27 PM, said:

Could be a very strong ♠ one suiter with red stops.... so 3♣ asks for a ♣ stopper: AKQ10xxx Ax KJx x... not willing to commit to a ten trick game but sure interested in a 9 trick contract

Wouldn't you bid 3S on that hand?

Quote

If I read the comments from Roland correctly, the player who held the 3♣ hand merely thought about bidding it and did not actually do it: which I think is the perfect way to deal with these thoughts... no partner deserves to have to figure out 3♣ at the table

Absolutely.

[SoTired]

"No matter how clever, a bid that confuses partner is a poor bid." - Me

What is our hand? How can we accurately guage what our partner's clever bid means without the context of what we have?

First things, first... I can't pass. So I have to do something.

I will bid my cheapest 3+ card red suit.

[Walddk]

Walddk, on Sep 11 2006, 01:37 PM, said:

1Club pass 1Spade pass
2Clubs pass pass .. 3♣?

"How would you interpret 3♣", David Greenwood asked me. He got this back:

"Very strong hand with spades, and possibly a red suit on the side. A hand too good to bid a natural 2♠ first time around, and not suitable for a leap to 4♠. 6-5, 6-4, 5-5, 5-4, and then I will correct 3♦ to 3♥ if I have the majors and 3♥ to 3♠ if I have spades and diamonds".

After a while I got this back from David:

"Right Roland. Thought I had invented a bid but any expert should deduce the obvious. I was given the hand

♠ AK1098x
♥ AKQxx
♦ void
♣ xx

from the CBAI Camrose Trials by BJ O'Brien. He actually doubled 1♠ and then got into a mess of course. Over 3♣ partner will bid 3♦ and you clarify with 3♥. 4♠ makes if you guess the spades which are QJxx onside. Only one dummy entry".

Roland