[hrothgar]

Here's an interesting hand that cropped up in a recent team match

White versus white, you hold the following as dealer

♠ 93
♥ 62
♦ KQT97
♣ 9653

You have a good partner, though you're certain not a well oiled partnership.
Expert opponents and team mates

Here's the auction

P - (1♠) - X - (3♠) - 3♠ is alerted as weak
P - (P) - X - (P)

I trust that no one will disagree with the first pass, nor the second.

For better or worse, I decided to pull the second double. (I've always played that the first double is for takeout, the second is convertable values, the third is blood)

What should 3NT show in this sequence?

[mike777]

1) I would pass. I think there are 17 or 18 total tricks.
2) On this auction I think partner would take 3NT by responder as a minimum hand with both minors.

[pbleighton]

I would have passed. I would mean 3NT to play, 2 spade stoppers and 8+ hcp.

I expect p to have a good hand for his second double.

Peter

[Winstonm]

Pretty much has to be t.o., doesn't it? If you had enough to bid 3N for a make after passing the first double you would hold in the range of 8-10 with no long suit. With a good 10, a card-showing responsive double would be made the first time. With 8-10 and enough to bid 3N, a pass is probably in order rather than risk being able to make 9 tricks when the opps know what to lead. So that pretty much narrows it down to some sort of takeout bid I would think. More in the line of scrambling 3N, trying to find the best playable fit at the 4-level.

[cherdano]

Why can't 3N be to play? How about KQx xx Kxxxxx xx?

Arend

[mike777]

cherdano, on Sep 12 2006, 07:43 PM, said:

Why can't 3N be to play? How about KQx xx Kxxxxx xx?

Arend

Is pass really that clear over 3s with that hand? I would have bid something.
1) I would assume our first pass limits our hand to 10 hcp
2) I would assume our second pass limits our hand to less than a maximum given assumption number one?
3) I assume our second pass limits our hand to most 0-7 hcp hands or some /semi or balanced 8-10 hcp hands.
4) I consider this hand a one suited 8-10 hcp hand so bid something.

[awm]

(1) I think 3NT should be to play. In my opinion "when in doubt, 3NT is to play" is a good rule. Most hands with TWO spade stoppers would at least consider passing the second double, so 3NT is probably something like Kx xx QJxxx xxxx for example. Partner's shown a good hand and 3NT could easily make on a spade lead and the run of the diamonds (i.e. partner could hold xx Axxx AKx AKxx). With slow values and a spade void partner certainly can remove 3NT.

(2) I like a 4♦ bid in this sequence. Even if 3NT were "two places to play" it seems unlikely that clubs will play much better than diamonds even if partner is 3-4 in the minors. As for passing, there are probably around 18 total tricks on this hand. Opponents have nine spades if not ten, and we probably have nine diamonds. There's also no reason to think we have strength in spades, or that our trump suit is breaking in their hands (either of which could reduce the tricks). At IMPs, I'd definitely want to avoid the possibility of -530 (3♠X making) and am willing to pay the price of occasionally trading a +100 for a -100 (3♠X down one for 4♦X down 1). Most of the time I'd expect one of 3♠ and 4♦ to make. In fact five diamonds could well be making, but bidding it with the worst possible spade holding seems over-aggressive.

[jdeegan]

Partner has shown a very good takeout double. The level is high, so he should be able to handle any suit bid from me. Distribution should be either 5-4-4-0 or 4-4-4-1 pattern or else both red suits. I guess 3NT would be to play showing a spade stop. If this gets doubled and I pull it, then it shows no additional high cards and suggests minors.

By the way, don't you think 5♦ is the right bid with the hand you gave? Can partner be any less than:

x
AQJx
10xxx
AKJx

about 75% to make given the bidding.

[Codo]

I think 3 NT should "always" be to play, because the potential disasters will count much more then the small wins you get if you can use this bid as a minor two suiter in this special hand.
So the choice is between 4 and 5 Diamond and I will take the later bid.

[mike777]

if partner has only one spade and responder has a stiff then responder has misbid.

You guys seem to assume responder has misbid.

Have our World Class opp really misbid?

If they have 10spades then they bid 4s at some point..not 3s.


I assume pard has 2 spades on this hand..not one.

[ewj]

If partner does indeed have 2 spades, then he'll have a very good hand!. I like 5D alot and I'd be quite annoyed with my partner if it didn't turn out to be a good spot.

3NT is surely to play...After (1S)-X-(3S), you dont stretch to bid 3NT on a reasonable 8-9 count do you?

[whereagles]

If the 2nd dbl is extras, 3NT can still be a target, so bidding it in the 2nd round should be natural.

But 4♦ seems par with your hand. There's a pretty high chance pard will have a doubleton spade, making 5♦ a long way. And if pard has a good hand, he can always mutter a prayer for you to have KJxxx of diamonds and take a shot at 5.

[MickyB]

I think there are far too many hands that will want to bid 3N at red, and too many at equal vul too - often they will be trying to protect a positional spade holding that, being under the opening bid, may turn out to be worthless on defence.

[Cascade]

mike777, on Sep 13 2006, 07:13 PM, said:

if partner has only one spade and responder has a stiff then responder has misbid.

You guys seem to assume responder has misbid.

Have our World Class opp really misbid?

If they have 10spades then they bid 4s at some point..not 3s.


I assume pard has 2 spades on this hand..not one.

There are many hands with 10 spades between the opponents where it is right for them to bid only three spades.

[helene_t]

4♦. If opps really don't have ten spades this may not be lawfull, especially with the spades splitting 2-2. But opps don't have to be lawfull, and my values are pure.

3NT is to play, of course.

[Apollo81]

hrothgar, on Sep 12 2006, 06:32 PM, said:

Here's an interesting hand that cropped up in a recent team match

White versus white, you hold the following as dealer

♠ 93
♥ 62
♦ KQT97
♣ 9653

You have a good partner, though you're certain not a well oiled partnership.
Expert opponents and team mates

Here's the auction

P - (1♠) - X - (3♠) - 3♠ is alerted as weak
P - (P) - X - (P)

I trust that no one will disagree with the first pass, nor the second.

For better or worse, I decided to pull the second double. (I've always played that the first double is for takeout, the second is convertable values, the third is blood)

What should 3NT show in this sequence?

4♦

Anything else is silly.

[Al_U_Card]

1st double was t/o.......since his hand didn't change significantly during the deal (except that the 3S bid tends to deny more than 2 S in his hand....ie takeout double distribution) I will accept that he may well be 1444 with 17+ hcp and I will pull the double to 4D. If he doubles 4S he is on his own. Remember that trump take tricks and they have at least 9 while we have at least 8 D and possibly more.

3NT will show that you are a mastermind because with xx he will pass it expecting to make and you will be down enough to make the bottom look like up.

[bid_em_up]

Personally, I think 4♦ is an underbid with a competent partner.

Responder has a weak hand, opener doesnt have enough to bid 4♠ (either as an advance sac or to play).

Give partner a reasonable hand for his bidding so far, such as:

Ax AQxx Axx KQxx

and 5♦ should have some play, and this is about the worst hand I would expect. Better hands just make it easier. So I would just bid 5♦.

While many suggest that 3N is to play, this doesnt make a lot of sense. If you have a holding that is capable of bidding 3N at equal vul on this auction, you should be converting the 2nd X to penalty. While it makes sense that 3N should be "pick a minor" in this sequence, partner has already said they can tolerate whatever you bid. Since your hand has such a good diamond suit, it doesnt make a lot of sense to bid 3N to find a minor.

[Free]

In a logical way, 3NT should be some sort of scrambling. With a hand where you think you'll make 3NT, you would've bid before or you should pass the second double. But I'm not sure many would play it this way...

Question: what is Hamman's rule exactly?

[bid_em_up]

mike777, on Sep 13 2006, 02:13 AM, said:

if partner has only one spade and responder has a stiff then responder has misbid.

You guys seem to assume responder has misbid.

Have our World Class opp really misbid?

If they have 10spades then they bid 4s at some point..not 3s.


I assume pard has 2 spades on this hand..not one.

Mike, the key here is that the higher level partner is going to force you to bid at, then the shorter he must get in the opponents suit OR the stronger his hand must get (and usually both).

In the cases where he has two spades, they will be Ax or KQ or at a minimum Kx. He cannot be expecting more than one spade loser given the auction.

RHO could well be holding Jxxxx xxx xxx xx and choose to bid only 3♠, the hand simply has too many losers and no stiffs/voids for a 4♠ bid.