[MickyB]

We are in the process of discussing a number of undefined competitive auctions in Siege, in preparation for the U25 trials that are approaching. Here's an interesting one -

1♦-(P)-1♥-(2♠)

1♦ showed 4+♦ unbalanced, and is the opening on any hand that is to be treated as a minor two-suiter, even if the ♣ are longer. (I think I remember us treating a couple of 22(45)s as balanced, and one 4-7 and one 4-6 (x Kx xxxx AKQxxx or similar) as single suiters)

What should everything mean now?

Option 1)
X = takeout, shows extras
2NT = some kind of Lebensohl (probably diamonds or minors weak, or hearts strong)
3C = nat, extras, suits can be either way around
3D = nat, extras
3H = nat, min, the usual bid on 1=3 in the majors
3S+ = various extreme hands

Advantage - You can show all the hands you want to. Disadvantage - Only if the opponents shut up over your 2NT bid (although following up with a double must show the strong hand with 4♥).

Option 2)
X = takeout, shows extras
2N = minors
3C = diamonds
3D = Heart raise, weak (can be 1=3 majors) or strong
3H = Heart raise, intermediate
3S+ = various extreme minor based hands

Advantage - You can show your minor handtypes straight away. Disadvantage - you can't show a minor based hand with some extras without going past 3m (unless you bid 2N:3♣, 3♦: Pass).

Option 3)
X = 15+, 2+♠, <4♥

Advantage - You won't often have a penalty pass of a takeout double on this auction, so you may as well bid with those hands and have a definition for double that will sometimes get passed out. Disadvantage - I can't come up with any nice meanings for the bids well, transfers might work again I guess.

Any advances?

[mike777]

option one seems playable with 2nt as good/bad 2nt...That would make a direct 3H stronger. Seems natural and easy to remember, is that a plus?

If you open light in Seige I assume you will just pass often in this situation.

[MickyB]

mike777, on Sep 6 2006, 08:08 PM, said:

option one seems playable with 2nt as good/bad 2nt...That would make a direct 3H stronger. Seems natural and easy to remember, is that a plus?

Nah, it's a definite minus

[Gerben42]

Good-bad 2NT should be in use here. Double would be TO-oriented with 3♥, 3m would show significant extras and 2NT would usually show the minor 1- or 2-suiter but not so great hand.

[kenrexford]

What does a 2♦ opening show in your system? I also, with some partnerships, open 1♦ the way you describe it. Adding 2♦ as an intermediate minor two-suiter helps with the 14-16 or so 1345/1354 hand that will be most problematic here.

[MickyB]

2♦ is a mini-multi, and I don't really want to give up on it. We open reasonably light, but not ridiculously so.

[kenrexford]

In that case, I'd suggest the following:

X = three-fit, extra's. If passed/XX, 2NT can ask if minors or just diamonds.
2NT = no three-fit, minor(s).
3C = 4-piece fit, extra strength
3D = diamonds, extras, no three-piece fit
3H = 4-piece, minimum
3S+ = extras

This is sort of a fusion. Some advantages are:

(1) better showing of three-piece heart fits
(2) 2NT is flexible, but no three-piece
(3) 3C allows a 3D relay to ask for info (if 3C is passed)
(4) fast arrival on junk/intermediate.

Pass implies bust or spade stack.

[awm]

I'd suggest something like:

X = 13(45) or 1363 or 2362 shape, or extras with no heart fit and no spade stopper
2NT = extras; either a spade stopper or 4♥ (this is forcing)
3♣ = distributional minor two-suiter, typically 5-5 minors, not particularly strong
3♦ = good six-plus card diamond suit, normally not 3♥, not extra high card points
3♥ = 4-card heart raise, minimum values
3♠ = good hand, solid diamonds, ask for spade stop
3NT = solid diamonds + spade stopper

Over the double, with a minimum responder normally bids 3♥ with five, or longer minor lacking five hearts. Now opener can pass, correct clubs to diamonds with fewer than four clubs, bid 3♥ to show a strong 13(45)-ish hand, bid 3♠ (stopper ask primarily) with a strong hand, or raise responder's minor suit choice. With a game force responder can start with 3♠, or bid 3NT to offer choice of games, bid 4-minor as a slam try, or try 4♥ fairly freely holding five or more in the suit.

Over 2NT, with a minimum responder can try bidding longer minor or rebidding a six-card heart suit. With enough for game opposite the promised extras responder can bid 3♠ (choice of games with five-hearts) or 3NT (four hearts only, basically to play opposite the promised stopper). If opener bids 4-minor over 3♠/3NT this should be taken as a cue for hearts.

[mike777]

MickyB, on Sep 6 2006, 02:38 PM, said:

2♦ is a mini-multi, and I don't really want to give up on it. We open reasonably light, but not ridiculously so.

I assume you can still pass over 2S with some minimum opening hand and hcp in your short suits? If a direct 3 minor bid shows more than a minimum....and going through 2nt shows some minimum with hcp in long suits,,then I assume passing is ok with some minimum but 2 suited minor suited hands?

[paulg]

mike777, on Sep 6 2006, 09:33 PM, said:

MickyB, on Sep 6 2006, 02:38 PM, said:

2♦ is a mini-multi, and I don't really want to give up on it. We open reasonably light, but not ridiculously so.

I assume you can still pass over 2S with some minimum opening hand and hcp in your short suits? If a direct 3 minor bid shows more than a minimum....and going through 2nt shows some minimum with hcp in long suits,,then I assume passing is ok with some minimum but 2 suited minor suited hands?

I didn't think Juniors were permitted to pass? I thought there was a rule somewhere.

Grumpy Old Man

[whereagles]

2NT as good-bad is a nice thing here.

Use 2NT for good and bad hands (good = 18-20 & cues later, bad = 11-14).
Use direct bids for intermediate hands (15-17).

[Poky]

MickyB, on Sep 6 2006, 08:00 PM, said:

We are in the process of discussing a number of undefined competitive auctions in Siege, in preparation for the U25 trials that are approaching. Here's an interesting one -

1♦-(P)-1♥-(2♠)

1♦ showed 4+♦ unbalanced, and is the opening on any hand that is to be treated as a minor two-suiter, even if the ♣ are longer. (I think I remember us treating a couple of 22(45)s as balanced, and one 4-7 and one 4-6 (x Kx xxxx AKQxxx or similar) as single suiters)

What should everything mean now?

I prefer the natural approach:

Dbl= decent hand with 3♥ or any good hand with rebid and short spades
2NT= invitational with 6♦ and stopper
3♣= 5♦5♣, decent hand, say 14-16, not forcing
3♦= competitive, decent hand
3♥= 4♥, weak hand
3♠= GF with 4♥ or ♠void
3NT= solid diamonds, stopper, say 15-17

[mike777]

whereagles, on Sep 7 2006, 04:39 AM, said:

2NT as good-bad is a nice thing here.

Use 2NT for good and bad hands (good = 18-20 & cues later, bad = 11-14).
Use direct bids for intermediate hands (15-17).

Whereagles brings up a great point. I bet you guys have a fine understanding of what a minimum or nonminimum hand is but I was surprised to find out in some of my partnerships they consider many 13 hcp, nonexotic, opening bids to be more than a minimum hand.

[inquiry]

If I played this 1♦ opening this way, I think the method proposed by AWM makes the most sense of what is posted and is consistent with your possible hand holdings.

[joshs]

How about:
x=3 hearts, considerable extras (16+ with a singleton somewhere, a drop more without one) or 4 hearts INV
2N 3 different hand types: 1. minors, competative, 2. 6+ Diamonds not much extra (correct 3C to 3D) 3. 4+D, 4+C a stopper (or at least a half stopper) and a game force (Can bid 3S next to show a 5'th card in partner's preference suit, 3H next to show Hx and doubt about NT, and 3N next otherwise)
3C Both Minors, Extras, NF
3D 6+D, Extras, NF
3H 4 Hearts, Min
3S GFing not sure where you belong, less than 3 hearts, usually no stopper. Can have 1 or both minors.

The headache is differentiating between 6D, and both minors on game forcing hands, but that is always a problem.

So if you have a 19 count with 4D and 6C you have to open 1D?? If the cuebid guaranteed a 5'th diamond, like in standard, that helps a lot....