Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped?

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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#3281 Al_U_Card

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Posted 2016-December-01, 13:02

Winstonm, on 2016-December-01, 11:37, said:

To me Kent State was and still is the blackest of all black days in U.S. history, an awakening that the freedom we believe we have is illusory.

An in extremis result of not tolerating divergent or otherwise unacceptable viewpoints. The students saw no reason that making weapons and killing people should be the most profitable enterprise.

The Grand Design, reflected in the face of Chaos...it's a fluke!

#3282 jonottawa

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Posted 2016-December-01, 13:27

Winstonm, on 2016-December-01, 12:55, said:

Here lies the problem -

I haven't the faintest how to find a solution...

You could start by not posting utter nonsense like that. You could start by demonstrating a SHRED of intellectual honesty.

Do you honestly believe that not a single non-citizen voted in the last election?

Do you honestly think that Obama's answer to the question didn't leave room for confusion, particularly to an ESL audience? (The question is at 3:22, here is the full interview:)

If your answer to either of the first 2 questions is yes, that begs a third question: Do you know what the word 'honestly' means?

Could you please explain in what sense the editing was fake or misleading. Were they supposed to air the ENTIRE interview?

Do you think that people who are already breaking the law EVERY DAY are going to hesitate to claim on some form that they're a US Citizen if that's ALL that they have to do in order to cast a vote?

Now, whether hundreds (an absurdly low number that a regressive leftist might trot out, also the margin of victory in the 2000 Election) or tens of thousands (an incredibly conservative estimate,) or hundreds of thousands (my guess,) or millions of non-citizens living in the US illegally voted in 2016: That is VOTER FRAUD & that is a problem.

That's why we need a national voter ID law for federal elections. If for no other reason than to give EVERYBODY a sense that American elections are legitimate.

"Maybe we should all get together and buy Kaitlyn a box set of "All in the Family" for Chanukah. Archie didn't think he was a racist, the problem was with all the chinks, dagos, niggers, kikes, etc. ruining the country." ~ barmar

#3283 jonottawa

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Posted 2016-December-01, 13:57

onoway, on 2016-November-30, 17:09, said:

I find your posts - those few I have forced myself to struggle through - idiotic, trite and thoroughly boring when they aren't being hysterical..and not in a funny way. Like fleas on a dog,or woodticks in spring, I wish you would just go away. Your attempts to hijack threads are juvenile and thank goodness I'm not forced to read any more of them, I can just scroll past to get to a post from someone who actually has something original to say. This one is that last of yours I will read or answer. If you really thought what you claim to think, then you are not doing your cause any favors by being so dense and irritating.

I am eternally grateful that Mikeh and Mycroft are around to demonstrate that not all Canadians are like you, indeed few of us are, but being as you all like to yell and scream and try to get attention any possible way you can it would be reasonable to think that more of us are emotionally and intellectually dishonest and slow than is the truth.

You're right, not all Canadians are like me. Some of us throw random (trite? really?) & childish insults at people, cry victim when someone responds to our posts in a methodical, logical way, refuse to engage intellectually or provide a single example of what they object to, and then storm off in a fit.

I am eternally grateful that I'm not like that too.

And for the UMPTEENTH time, I am ABUNDANTLY aware that none of the Bubble-dwellers in here will be convinced by me. YOU ARE NOT MY AUDIENCE. Thanks!

Now show a little traditional Canadian class & if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

Or at least follow my credo:

Posted Image

#3284 jonottawa

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Posted 2016-December-01, 14:18

kenberg, on 2016-December-01, 07:54, said:

I not only agree with this last sentence, I would like to emphasize it. Honestly, it starts at conception with the genetic structure you are given. I have known people whose bodies, if their bodies were cars, would have been recalled. At 77 I have decent health and, while I don't behave totally irresponsibly, nobody would accuse me of being overly careful. And I was born in the U.S. in the twentieth century. You don't have to claim the U.S. is exceptional (I make no such claim) to realize that there are many worse places and many worse centuries to be born into. As to choices, you can bid and play a hand perfectly and go down because of weird distribution, you can be off the wall and survive with luck.. I have made good choices and I have made bad choices, but here I am.

Gratitude for and recognition of good fortune is highly appropriate.

How does this translate? Most people, not every person but most of them, deserve our respect and our restraint in judging them. "Watch where you're going, step light on old toes" as Bob Seger put it. "Faith hope and charity, but the greatest of these is charity" as Paul put it in his letter to the Corinthians.

Recognizing luck in our own lives in no way negates the importance of effort and good judgment. But luck plays a far larger role than it is generally given credit for.

Reading this over, it sounds a little corny. I'll post it anyway.

This reminds me of something I heard once ... what was it? Oh wait, I remember!

Posted Image

"Maybe you'll marry, maybe you won't
Maybe you'll have children, maybe you won't
Maybe you'll divorce at 40, maybe you'll dance the "Funky Chicken"
On your 75th wedding anniversary
Whatever you do, don't congratulate yourself too much
Or berate yourself either
Your choices are half chance, so are everybody else's"

#3285 jonottawa

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Posted 2016-December-01, 14:41

The Real Reason Hillary Asked for a Recount

"Part of the answer is that people close to Hillary—Huma Abedin, Chelsea Clinton, and Sidney Blumenthal—encouraged her to ask for a recount as a way of lifting her spirits.

“She is weepy, looks ten years older and is very whiny,” said one of Hillary’s closest friends. “She has been drinking wine pretty heavily, much more than usual. She mopes around all day, swimming in a sea of recriminations and complaining that her campaign managers were ‘incompetent,’ Bill and Chelsea ‘didn’t work hard enough,’ FBI Director Comey was ‘in league with Trump.’”"

Sad!

Posted Image

#3286 kenberg

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Posted 2016-December-01, 15:45

jonottawa, on 2016-December-01, 14:18, said:

This reminds me of something I heard once ... what was it? Oh wait, I remember!

Posted Image

Now, Donald, you must pay closer attention;

The prof (aka keneberg): Recognizing luck in our own lives in no way negates the importance of effort and good judgment. But luck plays a far larger role than it is generally given credit for.

The student (aka Donald Trump): Everything in life is luck.

The grade: C-

And Donald, I did not say that every bounded sequence of real numbers converges. Every bounded sequence of real numbers has a convergent sub-sequence.There is a difference.

This is intended as a little late afternoon humor, not any sort of assertion about anything.

Is this going to get me listed on profwatch?

Ken

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Posted 2016-December-01, 17:05

jonottawa, on 2016-December-01, 13:27, said:

Do you honestly think that Obama's answer to the question didn't leave room for confusion, particularly to an ESL audience?

With all due respect, anyone who claims that Obama encouraged non-citizens to vote is either stupid or dishonest.

I know a Mexican woman here illegally (her daughter is a citizen and is a straight-A high-school student). There's no way that this woman would risk calling attention to herself by pulling a stunt like that. And why would illegals in California take that risk when the state was locked in for Clinton? They wouldn't.

Not to say fraud never happens, but I worked several elections here in Michigan and I can say that it's not as easy as some folks think to get away with it. Case in point: Trump supporter charged with voting twice in Iowa

Quote

Terri Lynn Rote, a 55-year-old Des Moines resident, was booked Thursday on a first-degree charge of election misconduct, according to Polk County Jail records. The charge is considered a Class D felony under Iowa state law.

Rote was released Friday after posting $5,000 bond. A preliminary hearing is scheduled for Nov. 7.

The Des Moines Register reported that Rote is a registered Republican who cast two ballots in the general election: an early-voting ballot at the Polk County Election Office and another at a county satellite voting location, according to police records.

Lock her up!

The growth of wisdom may be gauged exactly by the diminution of ill temper. — Friedrich Nietzsche
The infliction of cruelty with a good conscience is a delight to moralists — that is why they invented hell. — Bertrand Russell

#3288 cherdano

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Posted 2016-December-01, 17:25

jonottawa, on 2016-December-01, 13:27, said:

I have been an immigrant myself for the last 10 years (in two different countries).

I can promise you that almost no non-citizens voted in the US election. The reason is simple. As a non-citizen, you are much more afraid of committing felonies. You have fewer rights in any legal proceedings. And you have quite a bit more to lose - even minor infractions could cause you to get deported. (Or just not get your VISA renewed.) AKA having to move away from the place where you work, where you have friends, etc.

Indeed, the whole premise of the question is that even citizens may be afraid of voting - if they have family, or friends with the same address who are not, and who may not have a legal right to stay in the US. This fear may sound irrational to you. But to me (again, having been an immigrant myself for 10 years) it seems much more plausible than trying to vote illegally as a non-citizen (or, for heaven's sake, as an undocumented immigrant). Why risk your existence for a single vote that almost certainly won't change the outcome?

The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke

#3289 mikeh

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Posted 2016-December-01, 17:32

cherdano, on 2016-December-01, 17:25, said:

Don't confuse him with logic....let alone facts. It isn't fair and it won't work

'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari

#3290 jonottawa

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Posted 2016-December-01, 17:42

cherdano, on 2016-December-01, 17:25, said:

Indeed, the whole premise of the question is that even citizens may be afraid of voting

You agree this is the question that was asked?

"Many of the millennials, Dreamers, undocumented citizens -- and I call them citizens because they contribute to this country -- are fearful of voting. So if I vote, will immigration know where I live? Will they come for my family and deport us?"

And you claim "the whole premise of the question is that even citizens may be afraid of voting"?

If she had wanted to ask about ACTUAL citizens, she could have done so. She could have said "Many US citizens who are relatives of non-citizens living in the US illegally are fearful of voting. So if I vote, will immigration ..."

SHE DIDN'T DO THAT. If she had done that, NOBODY would have an issue with the question.

If Obama had corrected her and said directly: Hold on. Non-US Citizens are not allowed to vote & shouldn't register to vote. And then continued on with the rest of his answer, NOBODY would have an issue with the answer.

But he didn't.

You can play your 'it depends upon what the meaning of the word is is' games all day long. The question was awful. The answer was confusing, and Obama (Mr. 'Let me be clear') is smart enough to know it. And people who pretend otherwise are full of it. There was no 'fake edit'. The answer shown on Fox is the answer he gave.

#3291 cherdano

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Posted 2016-December-01, 17:51

Yup Jon. You proved it. She misspoke in the question, hence millions of non-citizen voted in the election. ITS ALL RIGGED!! AND JONOTTOWA PROVED IT!!!

Of course she garbled her question. She meant to ask what you wrote in your expanded version. Or maybe she meant to ask about undocumented immigrants who are fearful of their family members (who are citizens) voting.

The version you understood doesn't make sense to any immigrant, so nobody understood it that way. Nobody who is undocumented and who is even a tiny bit sane would think of drawing attention to their situation by trying to vote. You don't risk your livelihood and existence for a single vote. Nobody does that.

The only reason that Jon can think otherwise is that he has put an ugly caricature of immigrants in his head, and he can't think of them rationally anymore. I wonder whether there is a word for that...

The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke

#3292 jonottawa

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Posted 2016-December-01, 17:53

cherdano, on 2016-December-01, 17:25, said:

I can promise you that almost no non-citizens voted in the US election.

You're not in a position to 'promise' anything. Your guess is certainly no better than mine. But just out of curiosity, what's your definition of 'almost no'?

Dozens?
Hundreds?
Thousands?
Tens of Thousands?

#3293 cherdano

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Posted 2016-December-01, 17:57

jonottawa, on 2016-December-01, 17:53, said:

You're not in a position to 'promise' anything. Your guess is certainly no better than mine.

Unless you also have been an immigrant for the last 10 years, I am in a better position than you to guess.

Quote

But just out of curiosity, what's your definition of 'almost no'?

Dozens?
Hundreds?
Thousands?
Tens of Thousands?

Certainly less than thousands. I would be surprised if it is more than 100.

The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke

#3294 cherdano

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Posted 2016-December-01, 18:00

Here are some stories about deportations, or almost-deportations, of legal immigrants due to being convicted of minor offenses.
http://www.latimes.c...snap-story.html

It seems impossible to find numbers of how many legal immigrants were deported under Obama due to criminal convictions.

The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke

#3295 hrothgar

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Posted 2016-December-01, 18:21

cherdano, on 2016-December-01, 17:57, said:

Unless you also have been an immigrant for the last 10 years, I am in a better position than you to guess.

What makes this truly amusing is that (at least for a time) Jon was an immigrant here in the US.

He appeared to be living in Texas and managing an apartment complex (or at least his web site redirected to some ads for apartment rentals with a similar sounding email moniker)...

There was also some reference to a rather severe rattlesnake bite (which has been known to cause long term psychological morbidity)

Alderaan delenda est

#3296 jonottawa

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Posted 2016-December-01, 18:28

cherdano, on 2016-December-01, 17:57, said:

Unless you also have been an immigrant for the last 10 years, I am in a better position than you to guess.

You've been a non citizen living in a country illegally for the last 10 years? That's what we're talking about. Not legal immigrants. I agree that legal immigrants would be very unlikely to risk their immigration status by voting, but that's not what we were discussing.

cherdano, on 2016-December-01, 17:57, said:

Certainly less than thousands. I would be surprised if it is more than 100.

I hope the DoJ investigates once they finish their investigation of the Clinton Foundation. There were 14.2 million? or so votes cast in California. If one tenth of one percent (one person in one thousand) of those were cast by non-citizens (the vast majority of which are living in the country illegally,) that's 14,200. That's my 'floor'. I hope we get a chance to find out the true number (or a reasonable facsimile thereof.)

#3297 cherdano

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Posted 2016-December-01, 18:43

jonottawa, on 2016-December-01, 18:28, said:

So. You are saying legal immigrants are extremely careful not to risk anything. Yet undocumented immigrants are happy to risk their existence.

I can't see a reason to think that way. Unless, someone somehow think of undocumented immigrants as irrational beings, almost as if they were inferior humans. I wonder whether there is a word for that.

The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke

#3298 Al_U_Card

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Posted 2016-December-01, 18:44

Initially, I would not have thought it to be an important issue (election-wise) but it seems that some illegals fearing a Trump policy that would see them deported might sway them to vote, especially if somehow they were convinced that even the President said it was something they should consider. (Not that he did, but just the confusion between english-speakers regarding that interview might be ambiguous enough for the unscrupulous to convince non-english speakers to give it a try because the alternative would be the same (deportation) anyway.

The Grand Design, reflected in the face of Chaos...it's a fluke!

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Posted 2016-December-01, 18:54

jonottawa, on 2016-December-01, 17:42, said:

There was no 'fake edit'. The answer shown on Fox is the answer he gave.

The folks who watched the interview saw the whole thing, so those folks weren't confused. The only folks confused were those who saw the misleading edit.

Obama has done many, many interviews that went unreported by Fox news. The reason that this interview was reported was solely because it lent itself to the misleading edit.

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Posted 2016-December-01, 19:06

hrothgar, on 2016-December-01, 18:21, said:

You mean this guy? Jonathan Ferguson

Quote

I took on a #Trump-bashing #SkyisFalling #Hillary-shill. Did I win? You tell me.

No.

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