BBO Discussion Forums: Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? - BBO Discussion Forums

 hrothgar, on 2020-June-02, 12:58, said:

Yes, I just found it overwhelming. I have generally avoided trouble by being cautious, and even when I have regretted something it has been easy enough to deal with. But there have been times when I have regretted something, and for a bit of time I thought this was going to be one of them.
There is some tricky stuff out there, and caution seems right.
Anyway, I am now relaxed about it all..

 Winstonm, on 2020-June-01, 21:46, said:

Just so that we all understand...are you saying that none of the arson, looting, beatings, etc. would ever have happened had Pence been at the helm? Because he would've been had Trump been removed from office. And here's another hypothetical...Let's assume that Hillary was elected in 2016. Would the arsonists, looters, etc be obeying Her Majesty's decrees and staying at home watching Netflix? Or would they have been on the streets setting fire to police cars, government buildings, stealing liquor, Nike shoes, cigarettes, and Louis Vuitton purses?

 Chas_P, on 2020-June-02, 18:05, said:

Maybe the cops would not have the feeling that they could just kill black people and get away with it with Hillary in the white house rather than a white supremacist and the protests would not have been necessary.

 Chas_P, on 2020-June-02, 18:05, said:

I know that in an earlier post I said that I would rather have duck, any duck, in the White House instead of Donald Trump.. I suppose we could discuss whether a duck would actually be better. But we have Donald Trump in he White House, most unfortunately. We could speculate about what someone else would have done but we are stuck with who we have. I think that a duck could not have done worse. but why speculate.

Donald Trump does not belong in the White House. He doesn't, that's that. His performance has been far worse than I expected when he was elected, and I expected it to be awful.

There is never a duck around when you need one.

 Chas_P, on 2020-June-02, 18:05, said:

Quite the straw man you're constructing there...

No one is claiming that there is zero chance that the events of the past couple weeks would have happened if Hillary had won the election. With this said and done, I think that it is absolutely clear that the likelihood that these events occurred is much much higher with Trump in the White House and his reaction once these events occurred has been to stoke the flames.

Two simple data points.

First: compare Trump's action a couple days back in which in which the National Guard used rubber bullets and tear gas against peaceful protestors - all so Trump could have a meaningless photo opp in front of a church - with the speech that Biden gave in Philadelphia yesterday. These are contemporaneous actions and they show the clear differences between Trump and a normal administation.

Second: I don't think that you can over emphasize the ways in which the botched coronavirus response is contributing to the events that are currently unfolding. You have a whole bunch of people who are enormously upset who have a whole lot of free time on their hands.

I will say a bit more about the Chas post because I really do hope to sway some who still have lingering hope for Trump. Maybe not Chas, but maybe someone somewhere.

The pointing to others, Pence or HC or what have you, is an acknowledgement that Trump is scum. Or hopeless. Or, at the least, beyond defense. It has always been like this . It becomes impossible to support a person so what to do? Deflect the conversation.Talk about how awful others would be. This was very much what happened in the Nixon years. Look at what Johnson did. Look at what Truman did. Do anything except look at Nixon.

Trump is far and away the worst president during my lifetime and if I were more of a historian I could probably say the worst president ever. But even more to the point, forget the comparison with others, whether he is better or worse than, I don't know, maybe Van Buren. He is, on his own, a full-fledged disaster. The only thing he could now do to help the country is to resign. Go away. He won't, of course. I am hoping some who voted for him in 2016 will by now have decided not to vote for him in 2020.

Shields and Brooks on George Floyd, 100K coronavirus deaths (May 29):

https://www.youtube....ure=emb_rel_end

Here is a big reason why the protests are happening - with all races taking part. This is not policing, but bullying:

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This is a turning point. The country is in danger of failure.

Ken, it seems I'm not the only ones who think the media has a lot of responsibility for Biden's lack of coverage: The Daily Beast

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 Winstonm, on 2020-June-03, 07:42, said:

Yes, but your citation only says that the Biden campaign is complaining. I suppose the Beast agrees.


So this is a good opportunity for Biden to show that he can successfully cope with a problem. I suppose the starting point would be to understand why this is happening. Trump complains that the failing NYT is out to get him. That probably wouldn't fly for Biden. He needs to think through just what is happening. Complaining, even if the complaint has some truth to it, only takes him so far. People get enthusiastic about a candidate who can solve problems.



So this is an opportunity.

 hrothgar, on 2020-June-03, 04:43, said:

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Let's assume that I believe ANY of what the NPS police are claiming

(Please note: There's a whole bunch of news reporters who were at the scene who dispute these claims)

How does any of this detract from the central claims???

Is it really matter if the police used pepper spray versus tear gas?
Does the fact that people were climbing on a church justify firing rubber bullets into a crowd?
"Intelligence" suggested that there might be violence?

Does anyone actually believe that what was going on in Layfette park is any different than what is happening in 1,001 other locations in Washington?

Trump wanted a photo op
He thought it would look good if was brandishing a bible in front of a church

He deployed a goon squad to fire on protestors because he cares more about his media narrative than he does about the welfare of American citizens.

 kenberg, on 2020-June-03, 08:30, said:

The sad truth is that Trump is media-savvy and good for ratings and internet clicks. He is accessible and cheap for producers. He has a built-in audience. Even detractors are goaded into clicking onto or reading stories about him. It is Trump, Trump, Trump 24/7.

Not everything he tweets or says is newsworthy. At some point the media should ignore him and what he has said. We, the people, should do the same.

 Chas_P, on 2020-June-02, 18:05, said:

It's impossible to prove a hypothetical. But I feel quite confident that things would not be nearly as bad with anyone else at the helm.

I may not agree with Pence's opinions, but he seems like an intelligent, thoughtful person. If something like this happened on his watch, he would try to calm things down, not fan the flames.

Trump is an idiot and bully. He doesn't care about anything except increasing his power and profits.

At one time during the campaign he said he could act "presidential" and gave an impersonation of it. So far during his term, every time we needed him to act presidential, he has utterly failed. He ignored the coronavirus threat until it was too late, and since then his actions have been practically useless, although he continues to claim that they were great. His response to the violence this week have been more authoritarian than presidential.

When he was elected I thought "this sucks, but the country has survived sucky presidents before, we'll get past it". I don't think any of us could have imagined just how disastrous it would be, and now I'm not so sure how well we'll recover. And if he does get reelected, it's game over for the country. It's been a nice 2.5 centuries, but the wonderful experiment in American democracy will have failed.

• The account by Monahan was disputed by every single journalist who witnessed it.
  
• The denial about using tear gas is something to behold. Not, they didn't use tear gas! They used pepper balls! Which create smoke upon explosion that causes strong eye irritation!! AND THAT'S NOT TEAR GAS!!! JUST GAS CREATING TEARS!!!! (Except the CDC classifies it as...tear gas)
  
• Bill Barr ordered Lafayette park to be cleared according to a report in ....Fox news.... Or see the Washington post for a much more detailed account if you can bare it: https://www.washingt...fayette-square/

Of course the insanity of it all is that intentionally and unnecessarily causing people gathered in a large crowd to start coughing in the times of covid-19 is essentially attempted murder.

Anyway, chas_p's defenses of President Bleach seem getting more whimsical by the day. Good news. Maybe he has been looking at Biden-Trump polling lately?

 cherdano, on 2020-June-03, 10:34, said:

“The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”

 hrothgar, on 2020-June-03, 10:56, said:

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In his address to the convention in Kansas City, Trump defended his decision to slap tariffs on the U.S.'s trading partners. As Trump told the crowd that "it's all working out," he warned those in the audience against believing what they see in the news.

"What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening," Trump said

 hrothgar, on 2020-June-03, 09:40, said:

You're right. Setting fire to St. Johns church and throwing bricks at the police is all just part of "peaceful" protesting. They really should have sprinkled them with rose petals.

No grift is too big, or too small for the Grifter in Chief

President Trump tried to register to vote in Florida using an out-of-state address

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Doing his part to prove that there is widespread fraud in vote by mail election

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Fanboys of the Manchurian President should be encouraged that the Psychopath in Chief named a city in the USA and not a "foreign" city as his official residence.

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I personally don't see the problem here. Laws and legal agreements are for poor people, not billionaires.

Trump Denies, Then Admits, Going to White House Bunker During Protest

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Yes, sure we are in the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic that has kill 105000+ people in the US, and nationwide demonstrations of the murder of George Floyd. Despite that, the Grifter in Chief took time off from tweeting and watching Fox Propaganda TV to take a trip down to the White House Bunker-a-Logo to check the paint job and carpeting to see whether some serious changes needed to be made. The Manchurian President has the nation's interests at the forefront in these difficult times.