Help
Our local directors have been attending some training by a retired lady that used to direct our ACBL Sectional tournaments. I assume she has a regional or national rating as director. Anyway, she informed them that the practice of placing the suit led against notrump on the right (where trumps would normally go) constitutes an illegal memory aid. I think this is an absurd perversion of a law that is intended to prevent a player from, for example writing down the cards everyone has played. Does anyone agree with her interpretation? Let it be noted that the common practice of keeping the bidding cards on the table during the auction likewise provides an aid to memory; we could force players to pick up their bids after displaying them briefly, simulating spoken bidding. Given that the suits must be placed in some order and the Laws specify what to do when there is a trump suit and are conspicuously silent about notrump contracts, I'm not buying this interpretation. I doubt it was what the lawmakers intended.
Placement of suits at notrump
#2
- Group: Full Members
- Posts: 864
- Joined: 2014-July-30
- Gender:Male
- Location:Deventer, The Netherlands
Posted 2016-August-03, 15:13
I don't know about ACBL, but in Holland you're allowed to write down cntract, declarer and lead, provided it's not visible for those that still have to play the board. This information can also be seen on the screen of the Bridgemate II scoring system. I don't think that the Dutch Bridge Union, or the makers of a scoring system that's also used in WBF tournaments, would go against the Laws. The practice of puting the lead suit on the right doesn't add anything to the information you're allowed to have at the table, so it doesn't seems illegal to me.
Joost
#3
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 6,575
- Joined: 2004-March-12
- Gender:Male
- Location:UK
Posted 2016-August-03, 15:33
The comparison with leaving the bidding cards out during the auction is flawed. At your turn to call you can legally ask for the auction to date to be repeated in full (Law 20B). So leaving the bidding open provides no information beyond that to which the players are legally entitled.
Likewise, during the play, at your turn to play you can ask for limited information about the contract, including what are trumps (Law 41C). So positioning the trump suit is consistent with information lawfully entitled.
Technically I would say that an aid during the play of the suit that was led is not matched by corresponding laws. That said, I can imagine forgetting which spot card was led, but forgetting which suit? If they need that reminder you are beating them anyway.
Where I was brought up it was customary to place Clubs on the left if it is NT, trumps on the right (and Clubs not on the left) in a suit contract. I have not seen that widely replicated outside my circle of experience.
Likewise, during the play, at your turn to play you can ask for limited information about the contract, including what are trumps (Law 41C). So positioning the trump suit is consistent with information lawfully entitled.
Technically I would say that an aid during the play of the suit that was led is not matched by corresponding laws. That said, I can imagine forgetting which spot card was led, but forgetting which suit? If they need that reminder you are beating them anyway.
Where I was brought up it was customary to place Clubs on the left if it is NT, trumps on the right (and Clubs not on the left) in a suit contract. I have not seen that widely replicated outside my circle of experience.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.
Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. m
s
t
r-m
nd
ing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.
"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. m
str-mnding) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees."Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
#4
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 10,611
- Joined: 2009-September-15
- Gender:Female
- Location:London
Posted 2016-August-03, 15:35
sanst, on 2016-August-03, 15:13, said:
I don't know about ACBL, but in Holland you're allowed to write down cntract, declarer and lead, provided it's not visible for those that still have to play the board. This information can also be seen on the screen of the Bridgemate II scoring system. I don't think that the Dutch Bridge Union, or the makers of a scoring system that's also used in WBF tournaments, would go against the Laws. The practice of puting the lead suit on the right doesn't add anything to the information you're allowed to have at the table, so it doesn't seems illegal to me.
The difference is that you are not allowed to look at the lead on your scorecard or the Bridgemate, so the information is not available during the actual play of the hand.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
#5
- Group: Full Members
- Posts: 864
- Joined: 2014-July-30
- Gender:Male
- Location:Deventer, The Netherlands
Posted 2016-August-03, 15:55
Vampyr, on 2016-August-03, 15:35, said:
The difference is that you are not allowed to look at the lead on your scorecard or the Bridgemate, so the information is not available during the actual play of the hand.
Joost
#6
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 10,611
- Joined: 2009-September-15
- Gender:Female
- Location:London
Posted 2016-August-03, 16:15
sanst, on 2016-August-03, 15:55, said:
in Holland you're explicitly allowed to look at these notes, not the score card.
What notes do you mean? A note that says what card was led? That is illegal.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
#7
- Alchemist
-
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 1,764
- Joined: 2004-June-15
- Gender:Male
- Location:Beside a little lake in northwestern Montana
- Interests:Creator of the 'grbbridge' LaTeX typesetting package.
Posted 2016-August-03, 18:23
As the others have said... I think the director's statement about using the order of suits as a memory aid is universally accepted. The law is plenty clear: NO aids to memory, calculation, or technique, beyond those things you are explicitly allowed to know.
It's quite rare to see any accusations made of using this type of illegal information, by the declaring side at least.
It's quite rare to see any accusations made of using this type of illegal information, by the declaring side at least.
#8
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 4,531
- Joined: 2005-October-09
- Location:Netherlands
Posted 2016-August-04, 00:55
sanst, on 2016-August-03, 15:55, said:
in Holland you're explicitly allowed to look at these notes, not the score card.
Are you really sure about that?
The NBB (Dutch Bridge League) encourages people to enter the contract into the bridgemate (to prevent later disputes about the contract). Of course, it is natural to enter the opening lead at the same time. However, as far as I know there is no NBB document that allows you to review what you entered in the bridgemate during the play.
Rik
I want my opponents to leave my table with a smile on their face and without matchpoints on their score card - in that order.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not Eureka! (I found it!), but Thats funny Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not Eureka! (I found it!), but Thats funny Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
#9
- Group: Full Members
- Posts: 864
- Joined: 2014-July-30
- Gender:Male
- Location:Deventer, The Netherlands
Posted 2016-August-04, 02:21
Trinidad, on 2016-August-04, 00:55, said:
Are you really sure about that?
The NBB (Dutch Bridge League) encourages people to enter the contract into the bridgemate (to prevent later disputes about the contract). Of course, it is natural to enter the opening lead at the same time. However, as far as I know there is no NBB document that allows you to review what you entered in the bridgemate during the play.
Rik
The NBB (Dutch Bridge League) encourages people to enter the contract into the bridgemate (to prevent later disputes about the contract). Of course, it is natural to enter the opening lead at the same time. However, as far as I know there is no NBB document that allows you to review what you entered in the bridgemate during the play.
Rik
Joost
#10
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 1,796
- Joined: 2008-September-12
- Gender:Male
Posted 2016-August-04, 02:31
Trinidad, on 2016-August-04, 00:55, said:
Are you really sure about that?
The NBB (Dutch Bridge League) encourages people to enter the contract into the bridgemate (to prevent later disputes about the contract). Of course, it is natural to enter the opening lead at the same time. However, as far as I know there is no NBB document that allows you to review what you entered in the bridgemate during the play.
Rik
The NBB (Dutch Bridge League) encourages people to enter the contract into the bridgemate (to prevent later disputes about the contract). Of course, it is natural to enter the opening lead at the same time. However, as far as I know there is no NBB document that allows you to review what you entered in the bridgemate during the play.
Rik
How does this procedure prevent disputes about the contract? Does East (or West) have to press the OK button to agree the contract before the bidding cards are put away and the main play period starts?
#11
- Group: Full Members
- Posts: 864
- Joined: 2014-July-30
- Gender:Male
- Location:Deventer, The Netherlands
Posted 2016-August-04, 04:51
jallerton, on 2016-August-04, 02:31, said:
How does this procedure prevent disputes about the contract? Does East (or West) have to press the OK button to agree the contract before the bidding cards are put away and the main play period starts?
Joost
#12
- Group: Full Members
- Posts: 242
- Joined: 2003-March-27
Posted 2016-August-04, 07:49
sanst, on 2016-August-04, 02:21, said:
Sorry, in Dutch: Wedstrijdreglement NBB art. 7.3. This is an addition to the Laws and applies to all matches organised by the bridge union and the affiliated clubs (art. 2.1).
"Het is spelers toegestaan aantekening te houden van het contract, de leider, het resultaat, de score en de uitkomst. Deze aantekeningen mogen niet zichtbaar zijn voor spelers die het spel nog moeten spelen."
An automated translation:
"It is allowed to keep players tally of the contract, the leader, the result, the score and the outcome. These notes may not be visible to players still have to play the game."
Paul Hightower
#13
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 10,611
- Joined: 2009-September-15
- Gender:Female
- Location:London
Posted 2016-August-04, 08:20
lexlogan, on 2016-August-04, 07:49, said:
"Het is spelers toegestaan aantekening te houden van het contract, de leider, het resultaat, de score en de uitkomst. Deze aantekeningen mogen niet zichtbaar zijn voor spelers die het spel nog moeten spelen."
An automated translation:
"It is allowed to keep players tally of the contract, the leader, the result, the score and the outcome. These notes may not be visible to players still have to play the game."
An automated translation:
"It is allowed to keep players tally of the contract, the leader, the result, the score and the outcome. These notes may not be visible to players still have to play the game."
It is not entirely clear that this means that player may (illegally) look at this tally during a hand.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
#14
- The Abbess
-
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 17,197
- Joined: 2004-April-22
- Gender:Female
- Location:UK
Posted 2016-August-04, 08:23
Vampyr, on 2016-August-04, 08:20, said:
It is not entirely clear that this means that player may (illegally) look at this tally during a hand.
This. That the list includes the score may suggest that it is about previous hands.
However, this Dutch document suggests that they are talking about using the information during the play since there is a reference to 40C3a which disallows memory aids unless the SO decides otherwise.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
#15
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 6,575
- Joined: 2004-March-12
- Gender:Male
- Location:UK
Posted 2016-August-04, 08:25
Vampyr, on 2016-August-04, 08:20, said:
It is not entirely clear that this means that player may (illegally) look at this tally during a hand.
Quite the contrary. To me it seems clear that this means that they may NOT look at it during a hand.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.
Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mstr-mnding) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.
"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. m
str-mnding) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees."Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
#16
- Group: Admin
- Posts: 21,585
- Joined: 2004-August-21
- Gender:Male
Posted 2016-August-04, 08:36
1eyedjack, on 2016-August-04, 08:25, said:
Quite the contrary. To me it seems clear that this means that they may NOT look at it during a hand.
What it actually seems to be saying is that you can't allow other contestants to see your private score if it contains hands that they haven't yet played ("players still have to play the game"). It's not clear that it addresses the player consulting their own private score.
But since the Laws don't allow memory aids, and local regulations can't contravene the Laws, that means you can't consult this to remind yourself of details that the Laws don't allow, like the opening lead to the current hand.
#17
- The Abbess
-
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 17,197
- Joined: 2004-April-22
- Gender:Female
- Location:UK
Posted 2016-August-04, 08:46
barmar, on 2016-August-04, 08:36, said:
What it actually seems to be saying is that you can't allow other contestants to see your private score if it contains hands that they haven't yet played ("players still have to play the game"). It's not clear that it addresses the player consulting their own private score.
But since the Laws don't allow memory aids, and local regulations can't contravene the Laws, that means you can't consult this to remind yourself of details that the Laws don't allow, like the opening lead to the current hand.
But since the Laws don't allow memory aids, and local regulations can't contravene the Laws, that means you can't consult this to remind yourself of details that the Laws don't allow, like the opening lead to the current hand.
Emphasis mine.
This is not true:
40c3A said:
Unless permitted by the RegulatingAuthority a player is not entitled
during the auction and play periods to any aids to his memory,
calculation or technique.
during the auction and play periods to any aids to his memory,
calculation or technique.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
#18
- Group: Admin
- Posts: 21,585
- Joined: 2004-August-21
- Gender:Male
Posted 2016-August-04, 08:53
Good catch.
But I don't see where that regulation gives permission to the player to look at his tally about the current hand, since he "still has to play the game".
That clause is typically only invoked in special types of games, like Individuals, where it's common for one player to say "I'll play your CC", and he's then allowed to consult it. Or games with an enforced CC. Or beginner games.
But I don't see where that regulation gives permission to the player to look at his tally about the current hand, since he "still has to play the game".
That clause is typically only invoked in special types of games, like Individuals, where it's common for one player to say "I'll play your CC", and he's then allowed to consult it. Or games with an enforced CC. Or beginner games.
#19
- The Abbess
-
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 17,197
- Joined: 2004-April-22
- Gender:Female
- Location:UK
Posted 2016-August-04, 09:07
barmar, on 2016-August-04, 08:53, said:
That clause is typically only invoked in special types of games, like Individuals, where it's common for one player to say "I'll play your CC", and he's then allowed to consult it. Or games with an enforced CC. Or beginner games.
Yes I agree with this. I wonder if those who wrote the Dutch regulations really had consultation of the sheet during play in mind.
One for the pet peeve thread: It is really amazing so murky bridge laws and regulations sometimes are written. Ken Rexford's signature comes to mind. It shouldn't be an exercise in forensics or cryptology to interpret legal documents.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
#20
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 6,575
- Joined: 2004-March-12
- Gender:Male
- Location:UK
Posted 2016-August-04, 09:14
helene_t, on 2016-August-04, 09:07, said:
One for the pet peeve thread: It is really amazing so murky bridge laws and regulations sometimes are written. Ken Rexford's signature comes to mind. It shouldn't be an exercise in forensics or cryptology to interpret legal documents.
Although not applicable to the example in this thread, I think that some of the problem is that a select few officials who wield considerable power do not always agree with some of the Laws as they have been written and seek to impose their own interpretations that warp the strict meaning of those Laws to fall more in line with their personal agenda, confident that, given their position of power, their interpretations will not be (successfully) challenged.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.
Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mstr-mnding) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.
"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. m
str-mnding) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees."Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq