Insidious and annoying

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Insidious and annoying Should be actively discouraged?

#1 shyams

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Posted 2015-November-07, 06:37

I have noticed a trait among a few BBO players that I wanted to highlight. These players, when defending, will hesitate (or, to use the proper term, break tempo) when NOT holding the honour card and play smoothly when holding it.

As an example,
...................AJT4
....62.......................5
...................K873

Declarer plays the King from hand, and it goes 2, 4, 5 -- all in tempo.
Declarer now plays 3 from hand, [hesitate]6, Jack, Queen.

This is both illegal and annoying. I consider it an insidious practice that should be roundly condemned. It is so ingrained into some people that they break tempo even when it doesn't matter (e.g. QJT opposite dummy's A32 -- a finesse is worse only if hesitator's partner held singleton K). It gets so blatant sometimes that I type "East has the missing King" before playing low from dummy and watching East win. If I were to guess, West might think it is their duty to break tempo thereby create a guess in my mind -- but most people don't know or don't care that it is illegal.

What can we do to discourage this practice? Would love to hear other people's views.

Note: This is not a complaint about a specific player (or set of players).

#2 Zelandakh

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Posted 2015-November-07, 08:13

If playing in a smaller community (such as the Acol Club) make a note on their profile for future reference. If playing in the MBC, excuse yourself from the table and never have to see them again. Note that the most common form of this behaviour comes in the form of pausing noticeably with a singleton - I have that marked on a number of profiles and find the action highly consistent amongst that group.

(-: Zel :-)

#3 aguahombre

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Posted 2015-November-07, 08:18

I find it constant, not just consistent on OKB as well. It is easier to take note of those who don't.

"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)

#4 barmar

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Posted 2015-November-07, 21:10

you think they only do this online, not in f2f bridge?

#5 aguahombre

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Posted 2015-November-07, 22:26

barmar, on 2015-November-07, 21:10, said:

you think they only do this online, not in f2f bridge?

What is your point? The OP is complaining about something that happens on line and constantly. Just because it is also done f2f doesn't excuse the behavior. Furthermore, the fact that pings and distractions can also affect timing on-line doesn't fly as an excuse when the pattern is clear.

"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)

#6 oryctolagi

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Posted 2015-November-08, 04:40

Do you remember the 1960s BBC Radio comedy, Round the Horne, and in particular the regular characters 'Charles and Fiona'? They had an oft-repeated stock dialogue that went:
"I know."
"I know you know."
"I know you know I know."
"I know you know I know you know."
etc....

The point I'm making? Once you recognise an opponent's strategy (and it won't take long if you keep your eyes open), you can take advantage of it! Then once the opponent realises you've twigged, he has to change his strategy. Then you notice he's changed it .... and so on.

Unethical (though possibly not illegal) it may be - but it doesn't necessarily work to the offender's advantage.

#7 Vampyr

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Posted 2015-November-08, 04:53

It's a little weird for a declarer to be fooled by a hesitation with a finesse-able honour when a small card is led; the defender has nothing to think about. It is different when an honour is led, and is very different when there is KJ on the board and the player hesitates without the Ace.

I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein

#8 angervea

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Posted 2015-November-08, 08:10

It happened in the past and will happen in the future. You will always find people playing and behaving dishonest. But playing on the computer you can't always tell what's happening. The doorbell, someone asking a question. Mark the people you distrust and enjoy the play.

#9 daspdl

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Posted 2015-November-08, 08:23

Terence Reese has a hand called the little old lady. He is declarer and has queen of one suit. In another he does not have it and a two way finesse is possible. He starts by pretending to finesse in the suit he has the queen. The old lady opponent hesitates just a bit. Later in the hand the key finesse and the old lady opponent does not hesitate at all. So he knows she has it.

#10 jodepp

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Posted 2015-November-08, 13:34

This is not a new complaint. How you enforce the 'even tempo' online I have no idea, other than a recorder-type system that might track habitual offenders. I have been fighting (no understatement) in my f2f environment with a player who repeatedly does this (and everybody knows it), but he continues to hesitate anyway and simply denies any wrongdoing when called on it, even by his partner.

Some players apparently believe that the bridge table is the same environment as the poker table, where such 'coffeehousing' is considered part of game. Nothing is further from the truth of course, but some players just don't care and will continue to hesitate.

Maybe the solution is a movement among conscientious players simply to refuse to play with such offenders.

#11 helene_t

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Posted 2015-November-09, 03:06

It is difficult to demonstrate this I think. Maybe if you recorded the amunt of time it took the player to play from two small cards in situations where he obviously has nothing to gain by misleading (such as the OP situation where holding the queen could not be a reason for hesitating) to situations where he might have something to gain (such as if declarer plays the jack towards dummy's A9xx).

But even then it is not bullet proof. When he follows to the suit first time he might pause a bit to remind himself if they play UDC or standard, but when he follows second time he can play in tempo. More generally, people will sometimes pause for all kind of reasons many of which cannot be assumed to be random.

Maybe the best advice is just not to make too much use of tempo information when playing online.

The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket

#12 doris deck

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Posted 2015-November-09, 06:57

If you are seeking a high standard of play and good manners, BBO is not the place to find it.

#13 shyams

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Posted 2015-November-09, 07:14

doris deck, on 2015-November-09, 06:57, said:

If you are seeking a high standard of play and good manners, BBO is not the place to find it.

BBO is what we make of it. If we give up and accept it as "@#i& happens", it will only get worse.

I play a lot of robot games -- mainly because it's a structured & fast game.
I play a few teams matches -- And when you are play 8-12 boards with the same partner and opposite the same opponents, I think it is fair to expect a decent standard of ethics from all.
Finally, I often play as a sub in the "massive player" tournaments (e.g. B4F). In these I mostly don't react, whatever slimy stuff opponents try against me. And given the "massive player" nature of these tourneys, the fellow players and directors can probably play a part to reduce such coffeehousing.

#14 helene_t

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Posted 2015-November-09, 07:31

The vast majority of bbo players are polite and probably don't cheat. Obviously we have a recall bias in favour of the assholes.

The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket

#15 barmar

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Posted 2015-November-09, 10:03

aguahombre, on 2015-November-07, 22:26, said:

I didn't mean to excuse it, just dispute the suggestion that it's a worse problem on BBO than bridge in general.

#16 Vampyr

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Posted 2015-November-09, 11:53

barmar, on 2015-November-09, 10:03, said:

I didn't mean to excuse it, just dispute the suggestion that it's a worse problem on BBO than bridge in general.

I wonder if there is an observation bias here. I am guessing that those who play online in order to get some serious practice in are in the minority. Chances are, the opponent is watching TV or playing Candy Crush or doing the ironing while playing on BBO, so their tempo will be pretty random. But people notice random hesitations when they occur at certain tempo-sensitive times. Is this possible?

AH said above that "pings and distractions" are no excuse when the pattern is clear, but determining that there is actually a pattern seems far from trivial.

I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein

#17 mgoetze

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Posted 2015-November-09, 14:45

Just over a week ago, I was playing one of the most prestigious pairs tournaments in Germany, and led small to my KJx in hand. RHO hesitated, so I went up with the king, which lost to LHO's ace while RHO turned out to have the queen.

I refrained from commenting or calling the TD as my RHO was 10 years old and had been playing bridge for less than half a year.

On BBO of course you don't always know how old your opponents are and how long they have been playing...

"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"
-- Bertrand Russell

#18 barmar

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Posted 2015-November-09, 15:51

mgoetze, on 2015-November-09, 14:45, said:

On BBO of course you don't always know how old your opponents are and how long they have been playing...

Could be even worse:

#19 aguahombre

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Posted 2015-November-09, 19:44

Vampyr, on 2015-November-09, 11:53, said:

AH said above that "pings and distractions" are no excuse when the pattern is clear, but determining that there is actually a pattern seems far from trivial.

Two points, here:

1) The pattern emerges when the tempo breaks occur much more often in one of these situations than in unrelated situations.
2) I probably deserve the "AH".

BTW: There was an article perhaps two years ago on Bwinners by Gavin, where he takes us through a team match where he was able to use the opponents' habitual coffee housing to his advantage. Maybe someone could find it and link it here; I failed.

"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)

#20 Bbradley62

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Posted 2015-November-09, 20:40

mgoetze, on 2015-November-09, 14:45, said:

I refrained from commenting or calling the TD as my RHO was 10 years old and had been playing bridge for less than half a year.

But that sounds like exactly the time that the kid should have the situation explained to him.

A few decades ago, I played against a 13 year old and his middle-aged partner at an ACBL Regional. The partner did something slimy; I caught him, called the director and got a favorable ruling, but still wasn't satisfied with my pound of flesh. Since this was before the days of Recorders, the only thing I could think to do was tell the kid's mother. She assured me she'd take care of the situation, and I'm sure she did. (The kid now has several NABC+ titles on his resume.)

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BBO Discussion Forums: Insidious and annoying - BBO Discussion Forums

Insidious and annoying Should be actively discouraged?

#1 shyams

#2 Zelandakh

#3 aguahombre

#4 barmar

#5 aguahombre

#6 oryctolagi

#7 Vampyr

#8 angervea

#9 daspdl

#10 jodepp

#11 helene_t

#12 doris deck

#13 shyams

#14 helene_t

#15 barmar

#16 Vampyr

#17 mgoetze

#18 barmar

#19 aguahombre

#20 Bbradley62

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