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Another openers rebid

Poll: Another openers rebid (11 member(s) have cast votes)

Your rebid

  1. 2S (1 votes [9.09%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.09%

  2. 2N (10 votes [90.91%])

    Percentage of vote: 90.91%

  3. 3C (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

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#1 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-March-07, 01:24



Here's an easy one.
You are playing 2/1, 12-14nt, 2 is game forcing with either clubs or a balanced hand, if balanced, clubs could be as short as 2.
1M:2 promises 5
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#2 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2021-March-07, 01:28

I agree it's an easy decision, but I can't vote in the poll since I don't know what your partnership has agreed regarding rebids.. or are you looking to see what is most common amongst other partnerships?
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#3 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-March-07, 01:39

View Postsmerriman, on 2021-March-07, 01:28, said:

I agree it's an easy decision, but I can't vote in the poll since I don't know what your partnership has agreed regarding rebids.. or are you looking to see what is most common amongst other partnerships?


What you would play here, and your reasoning would be helpful.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#4 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-March-07, 03:21

2 = 6, 2NT = bal (5323), 3 = 4 support. you would have opened 1N playing strong NT so why is any rebid other than 2NT better???

playing 2 rebid as minimum hand here is false, as you do not have 6, minimum opening or unbalanced hand.
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#5 User is online   hrothgar 

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Posted 2021-March-07, 06:08

I have positional stoppers in both red suits

I want to be the one to declare NT
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#6 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-March-07, 11:12



Having shown your non minimum, balanced hand, partner shows 3 card support, asking you to cue.
Another obvious bid here 4?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#7 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-March-07, 11:58

View Postjillybean, on 2021-March-07, 11:12, said:



Having shown your non minimum, balanced hand, partner shows 3 card support, asking you to cue.
Another obvious bid here 4?


4 unless 3N shows 15-16 5(332)
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#8 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-March-07, 12:01

View Postjillybean, on 2021-March-07, 11:12, said:



Having shown your non minimum, balanced hand, partner shows 3 card support, asking you to cue.
Another obvious bid here 4?

This is a terrible, for slam purposes, 15 count. We have weak spades and soft red cards.

I recommend that cuebids below game be optional, in that one cuebids only with non-terrible hands. It’s not that one needs a good hand to cue, but one needs a non-terrible one.

Now, if we played some form of serious or non-serious cues, such that I could suggest a bad hand but still cue, then I’d do it. As it is, I bid 3N here to let partner know that some 3334 hand might be ok in notrump.
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#9 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-March-07, 13:15

Either 3NT or 4, as long as it means 'to play'. Partner knows we have at least 15 points, balanced, with at least 5 spades. It's next to impossible to have less than the given hand and still be within that range, so if partner wants a slam opposite this relative garbage they'll keep the bidding open.
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#10 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-March-07, 13:19

View Postmikeh, on 2021-March-07, 12:01, said:

I recommend that cuebids below game be optional, in that one cuebids only with non-terrible hands. It’s not that one needs a good hand to cue, but one needs a non-terrible one.


This is where we are coming unstuck. Either partner cues with a terrible hand or signs off after showing a non minimum opener leaving partner confused and pushing on, as they know we have a cue below game.

After showing a non minimum with the 2nt bid, I assume you are obliged to cue over 3nt? In this case, 4/3nt would take you back to 4
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#11 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-March-07, 13:34

Our doomed auction

Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#12 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-March-07, 14:03

View Postjillybean, on 2021-March-07, 13:34, said:

Our doomed auction



with 4333 opposite a 5332 hand, and you can calculate that partner has 5332 as he has bid 2NT not a suit, bidding 4NT rkcb is asking partner to have very especial cards for slam to be there. south's / suit are poor
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#13 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-March-07, 14:48

View Postjillybean, on 2021-March-07, 13:34, said:

Our doomed auction


Refusing to cuebid over 203S does not deny a control that one ‘could’ cuebid and it should NOT confuse partner

It says, and I encourage you to think in terms of a conversation, I have a bad hand in context. I could have had an average or great hand, but I don’t. You need a great hand, in context, to move towards slam

Responder has a flat 16, with a usually wasted spade Jack and no semblance of ruffing values or much hope of a long suit trick. Moving towards slam with that hand shows that responder wasn’t listening to the auction
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#14 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-March-07, 15:43

View PostLBengtsson, on 2021-March-07, 14:03, said:

with 4333 opposite a 5332 hand, and you can calculate that partner has 5332 as he has bid 2NT not a suit, bidding 4NT rkcb is asking partner to have very especial cards for slam to be there. south's / suit are poor


Not really it's asking partner not to have 15, 2N is 15-19 or so. It is not unreasonable for partner to bid 3N/4 with 15-16 so if they bid 4 you assume they have 17-19, now slam is very plausible.
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#15 User is online   awm 

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Posted 2021-March-07, 16:03

If opener had something like Axxxx KQx Ax QJx then slam is very good and that seems within the range of possible hands given the methods. Obviously it would be better to have opener bid 3nt “non-serious” or even 4 “fast arrival” since the actual hand is obviously quite poor for slam (unlike the hand I’ve given which has much better controls).

I think as South I would’ve just bid 4nt (quantitative) over 2nt though; 5(332) opposite 3433 usually plays about as well in notrump as a suit and this lets opener use his judgement rather than basically forcing slam unless off two aces via a keycard bid. While 31-point slams certainly can make, they are not odds on when you have two very flat hands.
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#16 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-March-07, 18:32

Thanks for the explanations, so far so good.

I'm not clear on the 2nt rebid, the hand has gone from a "good hand, a K more than minimum" to a terrible hand.

Is there any merit in downgrading openers rebid to 2?

In my methods 2 does not promise 6 and simply says, I have nothing more to tell you about my hand. Or, is protecting the red suit holdings more important if we end up playing in nt?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#17 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-March-07, 21:10

View Postjillybean, on 2021-March-07, 18:32, said:

Thanks for the explanations, so far so good.

I'm not clear on the 2nt rebid, the hand has gone from a "good hand, a K more than minimum" to a terrible hand.

Is there any merit in downgrading openers rebid to 2?

In my methods 2 does not promise 6 and simply says, I have nothing more to tell you about my hand. Or, is protecting the red suit holdings more important if we end up playing in nt?

You misunderstand a very important aspect of collaborative bidding.

In sequences in which we have described our hand within narrow parameters, such as opening 1S and rebidding 2N, partner knows that we have 15-17 and some 5332 shape (maybe 5224 is permitted).

Partner then bids 3S. This is either a choice of games (3N or 4S) or it is a slam try in spades.

As opener, we don’t have to guess.

But we do have to tell partner whether, in the context of having 15-17 5332 we have a ‘good’ hand or a ‘bad’ hand.

Obviously our bad hand is still pretty good, in a vacuum. Anytime we pick up 15 hcp and 5332 we like it. It’s a ‘good’ hand, within the context that so far nobody has bid. Our average hand is some 4432/4333 10 count, after all.

But now that we’ve told partner we hold 15-17 with 5332, and he’s shown a gf balanced hand, or clubs and spades, we can refine our description.

Nothing we say will contradict that we have 15-17 5332. But we can say whether we have a good or poor hand, in context. We cannot show a hand with fewer than 15 hcp! But we can say whether we have a good 15-17 or a bad 15-17.

Compare AQ109x AJx Axx Qx to A7653 KQx KQx Jx

Which do you think is better? Put another way: do you see a difference between these hands such that partner might be better positioned to make an intelligent decision if we were able to give partner a clue?

This is an extremely important point. Those who read a lot of my posts will note that I frequently talk about my hand ‘in context’.

In auctions in which partner is or may be making a slam try, where we have already provided some description of our hand, it is essential to let partner know how good our hand is ‘in the context of what we’ve already described’.

When our hand is clearly better than it might be, we cooperate. When it’s towards the bottom of what we might have, we don’t cooperate. Average hands or better do cooperate, minimums don’t

This theme continues.

Say we’ve cooperated once...but our hand is average, nothing special. Then if partner makes another try below game, we can consider signing off (this isn’t always possible due to the momentum of the auction), making a further move only with a really good hand, in context.

I tend to play with expert partners.

An auction might go

1S. 2D. (Game force)
2S. 3S. (Some slam interest, the 2S bid said very little)
4C. 4D
4H. 4S
P

Look at that: we’ve made 4 slam tries! Yet we’re in 4S

I guarantee that if slam makes, it’s lucky.

We might have

AJxxxx KQx xx Ax opposite Q10x xx AQJxx KJx

The conversation went:

I have 5+ spades and at least 11 hcp

I have 5+ diamonds and enough to force to game

I may have only 5 spades, in which case I don’t have 5332 with values in the unbid suits, and I don’t have 4 hearts

I have real spade support and, since you are unlimited, I am letting you know that I’m not ashamed of my hand

I’m not ashamed either...here’s a club cue

Ok, here’s a diamond cue

Back to you with a heart cue

4S: ok, I’ve heard your bidding. I’ve cooperated, but I don’t have anything extra to tell you about. What do you think?

Pass: I know you have a decent hand, but if you’ve got what we need for slam you’re not bidding 4S.

Returning to your hand: opener has a bad hand within the range of hands shown by 2N. Therefore it is a mistake to tell partner, via a 4C cuebid, that : within the family of hands I’ve described, I think my hand is average or better.

For slam bidding, one should like hands relatively (in context!) rich in aces and kings and poor in queens and jacks

Here, we have 3 Queens and a Jack. We have only 4 controls....it’s hard to get to 15 without 3 controls, so this is just barely over a minimum, and our spade suit sucks. Yes, I see that partner has KQJ, but we’re engaged in a conversation, and he knows what he has. Our job is to describe what we have, and we have a bad trump suit, very soft values and a terrible hand IN CONTEXT.

This principle works in numerous situations. Sometimes it allows one to be very aggressive with weak hands. Say we’ve made a bid that limited our hand to 5-9 hcp.....1S P 2S

Partner makes a game try. If we have a good hand in context we move towards game. If we don’t, we sign off. Sometimes we have the luxury of an in-between bid. 1S. 2S. 3C. 3H

I don’t have a good hand opposite a club game try but have at least an average hand and I’ve got help in hearts, if that interests you.

I’ve gone on at length, not for the first time. Hand evaluation doesn’t happen only when we pick up and sort our cards. It is an ongoing process, and sometimes we learn information that makes us view a once promising hand with caution, and sometimes a once seemingly weak hand becomes huge

In the ACBL Bulletin for Feb, the east hand for their bidding challenge was Qxxx Kxxx xx xxx

Not very promising, right?

I bid it with a partner

1C on my left.

2C michael’s, pass to me

My hand suddenly got much better. Partner has 5-5 or better, and look how my cards fit! AJxxx Axxxx x xx makes game playable and he probably won’t bid game without a little more than this.

I jumped to 2S, invitational to game

As it happened, he had AKJxxx AQJxx Ax void, so exclusion got us very quickly to 7S. I’m sure most players would agree with 2S, so I’m not claiming brilliancy....merely pointing out how context changes valuation.
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#18 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-March-08, 04:52

I agree with everything Mike said except for two things, 2N rebid for many playing weak NT is 15 upwards to your 2N opener not just 15-17, so this hand becomes even more minimum.

The last bit:

"2C michael’s, pass to me

My hand suddenly got much better. Partner has 5-5 or better, and look how my cards fit! AJxxx Axxxx x xx makes game playable and he probably won’t bid game without a little more than this.

I jumped to 2S, invitational to game"

2 is not a jump over 2, suspect you meant 3
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#19 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-March-08, 05:11

View Postjillybean, on 2021-March-07, 18:32, said:

Thanks for the explanations, so far so good.

I'm not clear on the 2nt rebid, the hand has gone from a "good hand, a K more than minimum" to a terrible hand.

Is there any merit in downgrading openers rebid to 2?

In my methods 2 does not promise 6 and simply says, I have nothing more to tell you about my hand. Or, is protecting the red suit holdings more important if we end up playing in nt?
I agree with Mike's post. Furthermore, it is my understanding that in a weak NT system it is pertinent to rebid NT at the first opportunity to sort out the strong NT hands, so I would play 1-2; 2NT as 15-17 and take different (conventional) action with 17-19. The point is that in a weak NT system any non-1NT opening promises extras, either in the form of points or shape, and you want to inform partner which one it is at the earliest possible juncture to help them evaluate their hand.
If you are playing a strong NT it is more reasonable to play the 2NT rebid as "12-14 or 18-19 and I'll tell you which one it is later", but only if it is forcing (which puts restrictions on 2. Incidentally, I don't like this treatment very much either).
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#20 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-March-08, 10:51

Good catch, David

I did mean 3S. I’d like to say that I slip in mistakes like that to see if anyone actually reads what I write😳

But the truth is that I’m prone to error!
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